New Blackstaff discussion

[groinkick]

And you do?

Of course not.  I attempt (and fail I'm sure) to talk as someone from the outside looking in.  But your comment "The fact he's unopposed to it is the problem, from the point of view of the average White Council member." sounds like you're speaking as an authority on what a council member believes.

That's really not how people work when they find out about something like that.

Consider when we all that information about the CIA and NSA surveillance was leaked. Was the general reaction, "Well, I'm glad that the NSA is keeping an eye out for security risks!" or was it, "Holy shit, the government is watching us all! This is terrible!"

Depends who you ask.  Some people were paranoid, some people like it because they don't mind giving up privacy (that nobody will pay attention to) with the hope that it can stop major terrorist attacks.

You're making an assumption about the White Council that just plain runs counter to human nature. Wizards are used to being the most powerful person in the room. Do you really think they're totally OK with someone who has license to wipe them off the map using powers they're not allowed to use?

Yes because it happens everyday in real life. The Russian people love Putin.  Polls have his support as incredibly high in Russia.  He worked for the KGB, and is connected to reporters, and political opponents being murdered.  If he wants someone dead in that country, they will be.  The people still love him though because they think he's got their best interest at heart, and that he wants Russia to be strong again.  Doesn't matter if they are right, or wrong, it's what they believe.  Do some people fear him?  You can be sure, but Russia as a whole loves him.

The point is the White Council does not know who the Blackstaff is, how he operates, on what basis he picks his targets, or what ethics he has.

See that's what I'm talking about with you speaking from the perspective of a member of the White Council.  We as readers don't know this.  If you have WOJ, or in book information that i don't recall I'd like to read it.  But I don't recall there ever really being much information about what anyone on the Council knows.

All I know is that Langtry, LtW, Gatekeeper, and Martha Liberty are people with different personalities, and beliefs, highly intelligent, and people of character from what I can tell, and none of them have come out openly about their opposition to the Blackstaff.  LtW, Gatekeeper, and Liberty to me are the best examples to me. 

You're speaking from the perspective of knowing the Blackstaff is an extremely honorable, judicious man. The White Council doesn't know that. All they know is that there's someone out there who's allowed to break all the rules they'd be put to death for even skirting.

His position grants him immunity to the rules only for as long as the Council allows it.  That's what I think you're missing.  If the majority of Council members felt he was abusing his position, he'd be gone.  He's not some god that can just do whatever he wants forever.  You can be sure if Langtry thought Eb was abusing his position, he'd need only a few more people to support his position and McCoy would be gone.

[LordDresden2]

Except it's not about the power he has, it's about the hypocrisy inherent in him existing.

Hypocrisy is an inescapable, inevitable fact of life, in both the real world and the DV.  There's no getting away from it.

The Merlin is incredibly powerful, people don't mind that so much.  But having the Council say "the rules apply to everyone... Except him, he's cool," that people would mind.

They'd mind...but would they mind enough to matter?  Yeah, it would infuriate the naïve idealists, and the young recruits.  It would annoy people that somebody else gets to do the Cool Stuff they don't.  But that's life, more-or-less.

If they knew that there was some specific thing about the Blackstaff that let him use black magic and get away with it, and that it couldn't be duplicated...well, then he can use it and nobody else can get away with it.  Not fair, not pleasant, but anybody who lives for decades, much less centuries, knows that life isn't fair and reality is often unpleasant.

I'm not at all sure that knowledge of the Blackstaff, even in its detail, would split the Council.  Not by itself.  You might see some apprentices and young bucks scream about fairness and equity, but they have to learn about life's realities sooner or later anyway.

[LordDresden2]

The fact he's unopposed to it is the problem, from the point of view of the average White Council member.

"So we're all under threat of instant death if we ever commit one offense against the laws ... except the Merlin's croney, apparently. If he can use it, why can't we?"

Because he has a blackstaff and you don't, and there's only one and we don't know how to make another.

In fact, if the Council in general knew the details about the position, they'd have to explain about the blackstaff as an item in answer to just that question.  Which could lead to all kinds of problems, but would be a good and sufficient answer to the question.

The issue would be whether the explanation would be believed, but there's good reason to think it would be.  The Wizards don't have to take the nasty effects of black magic on faith, after all.  They have the Sight, and most of them have probably encountered the effects if they've lived very long, esp. involving the First and Fourth Laws.  The Wardens most definitely know the effects are real.

So here's Eb (or whoever the current holder is), using black magic on a regular basis and a significant scale and yet he's fairly clearly not warped out of shape in the familiar black magic way.  They can look at him with the Sight, or soulgaze him, for evidence that he's not Kemmler II or the Korean Kid on Steroids.

So there's evidence that there's something special at work with the blackstaff.

The real issue about more public knowledge, it seems to me, is Mother Winter.  If, as we all seem to be assuming, the blackstaff is her walking stick, it might not do for her to find out who has it.

On the other hand, it always struck me as improbable that she doesn't know who has it.

[Zaphodess]

Because he has a blackstaff and you don't, and there's only one and we don't know how to make another.

Aaand being wizards, they won't just accept that answer and rather try to make one for themselves.

Well, maybe the young ones.

I think the WC might handle knowledge about the Blackstaff in a similar way they do knowledge about Wizards Sight. They don't tell the young ones, because that'd be trouble. Once you find out for yourself, you're old and wise enough to handle the information the right way: accept it and shut up about it. Unless with the Sight, there might be very old wizards though who have yet to find out ...

[LordDresden2]

Aaand being wizards, they won't just accept that answer and rather try to make one for themselves.

Well, maybe the young ones.

They're free to try.  In fact, I'm sure Wizards have tried, over the centuries.  There's still apparently only one.

Heck, if the theory that the blackstaff is Mother Winter's walking stick is right, then even Mother Winter apparently hasn't been able to get a duplicate.  Make of that what you will.

[kazimmoinuddin]

It is theorized black magic corruption is some how linked to the outside, and the winter court mans the outer gates. It is believed the black staff is mother winter walking stick so that might not be coincidence.
So I am wondering if winter knight has some protection from the corruption of black magic. The walking stick would a physical relic of mother winter power, while the knight mantle is a portion of her power.
 But the staff and mantle would have their costs and concequences for any protection they provide.

[Mr. Death]

Of course not.  I attempt (and fail I'm sure) to talk as someone from the outside looking in.  But your comment "The fact he's unopposed to it is the problem, from the point of view of the average White Council member." sounds like you're speaking as an authority on what a council member believes.

The point was, you're countering my point by trying to say since I'm not a White Council member, I can't say their point of view ... and then you expound on what their point of view would be.

I'm mainly talking from what we know about wizards and what we know about humanity in general. Humans generally don't like the idea that there's someone allowed to do something they're not, especially when that thing they're not, they're told it's wrong for anyone to do ever and will be put to death by doing it.

I mean, remember how unfair it felt when your younger sibling got away with something you'd gotten spanked for when you did it? Like that, up to 11.

Depends who you ask.  Some people were paranoid, some people like it because they don't mind giving up privacy (that nobody will pay attention to) with the hope that it can stop major terrorist attacks.

I remember it being far more of the former, and a hell of a lot of outrage about it.

Yes because it happens everyday in real life. The Russian people love Putin.  Polls have his support as incredibly high in Russia.  He worked for the KGB, and is connected to reporters, and political opponents being murdered.  If he wants someone dead in that country, they will be.  The people still love him though because they think he's got their best interest at heart, and that he wants Russia to be strong again.  Doesn't matter if they are right, or wrong, it's what they believe.  Do some people fear him?  You can be sure, but Russia as a whole loves him.

I'm wondering how close real-world politics are to touchy topics, but I kinda want a citation needed here.

See that's what I'm talking about with you speaking from the perspective of a member of the White Council.  We as readers don't know this.  If you have WOJ, or in book information that i don't recall I'd like to read it.  But I don't recall there ever really being much information about what anyone on the Council knows.

The whole point of the position is to be a secret. The White Council isn't supposed to have someone who can break the laws, since the organization as a whole exists primarily to enforce the laws. I'm just using plain logic here. You don't need WOJ or in-book confirmation to extrapolate that the White Council's majority doesn't know all the intimate details of a position that's not supposed to officially exist.

It's like saying I need some kind of written proof to argue that the average American doesn't have the IDs and mission reports of still-classified black ops missions.

All I know is that Langtry, LtW, Gatekeeper, and Martha Liberty are people with different personalities, and beliefs, highly intelligent, and people of character from what I can tell, and none of them have come out openly about their opposition to the Blackstaff.  LtW, Gatekeeper, and Liberty to me are the best examples to me.

Because it's a secret position that's not supposed to exist. They don't acknowledge it exists in any official capacity. That they don't "oppose" something they're not supposed to let on that they know about doesn't mean anything.

His position grants him immunity to the rules only for as long as the Council allows it.  That's what I think you're missing.  If the majority of Council members felt he was abusing his position, he'd be gone.  He's not some god that can just do whatever he wants forever.  You can be sure if Langtry thought Eb was abusing his position, he'd need only a few more people to support his position and McCoy would be gone.

And what constitutes "abusing his position"? The position that's not supposed to exist, again.

What it still boils down to is an assassin who's allowed to break the rules everyone else must abide by under penalty of death, it's a secret position with no official oversight, allowed to work at the assassin's choices and discretion using any methods he deems fit against whatever targets he deems necessary to snuff out (or worse -- remember, he's allowed to break all the laws. If Ebenezer decides enthralling, transforming or mind-blanking a target is the right way, he'll do it).

When you don't know that Ebenezer is an honorable man who is primarily driven to uphold the laws, that kind of thing is terrifying, not comforting.

[Snark Knight]

I'm wondering how close real-world politics are to touchy topics, but I kinda want a citation needed here.

Just for the sake of an English-language citation that he has high domestic popularity, https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/how-to-understand-putins-jaw-droppingly-high-approval-ratings/2016/03/05/17f5d8f2-d5ba-11e5-a65b-587e721fb231_story.html

(I claim no expertise on whether respondents genuinely love him or fear the government can see their individual answers)

[Shecky]

I'm wondering how close real-world politics are to touchy topics

Right there in the list.

Everyone, steer clear of Touchy Topics, and do please maintain the civilized decorum expected in these forums.

[Mickey Finn]

What did Shecky just say?

[Rasins]

It is theorized black magic corruption is some how linked to the outside, and the winter court mans the outer gates. It is believed the black staff is mother winter walking stick so that might not be coincidence.
So I am wondering if winter knight has some protection from the corruption of black magic. The walking stick would a physical relic of mother winter power, while the knight mantle is a portion of her power.
 But the staff and mantle would have their costs and concequences for any protection they provide.

Logically, if even Mab is worried about Nemfection, then I'd bet that the WK has no immunization to black magic, assuming that Black Magic corruption and the outside are linked.

Now, if Harry gets his hands on the Blackstaff, that would mean he has an (almost) direct link to Mother Winter and her power.  I wonder if that would make using the Blackstaff even more potent. 

Further, would his status as a Starborn augment it even further?

[Mr. Death]

Logically, if even Mab is worried about Nemfection, then I'd bet that the WK has no immunization to black magic, assuming that Black Magic corruption and the outside are linked.

I've occasionally wondered if the sponsored magics are affected by the black magic taint -- I mean, faeries and vampires and the like can apparently kill with magic without the taint. I wonder if using Winter or Summer magic offers any kind of "buffer" to it.

Now, if Harry gets his hands on the Blackstaff, that would mean he has an (almost) direct link to Mother Winter and her power.  I wonder if that would make using the Blackstaff even more potent.

It could. It might also tell Mother Winter where her missing walking stick is -- with someone she can apparently summon back to her home.

[Rasins]

I've occasionally wondered if the sponsored magics are affected by the black magic taint -- I mean, faeries and vampires and the like can apparently kill with magic without the taint. I wonder if using Winter or Summer magic offers any kind of "buffer" to it.
It could. It might also tell Mother Winter where her missing walking stick is -- with someone she can apparently summon back to her home.

We don't know if they gain a taint when they kill with magic.  The only one I remember doing anything like that was Aurora, and she didn't live very long after attempting it.

[jonas]

We don't know if they gain a taint when they kill with magic.  The only one I remember doing anything like that was Aurora, and she didn't live very long after attempting it.

They can kill with magic because they act in compliance with the balance, they don't break free will. Mortal magic taints when it breaks cosmic laws tied to freedom of will. Pretty sure the whole point of the WK is to act as a buffer for Mab, to keep HER from getting the taint. By giving the job of violating free will to her disposable subordinate. Also, when she keeps him in the bullpen too long highjinx start up pretty steadily in the winter court.

[Quantus]

We don't know if they gain a taint when they kill with magic.  The only one I remember doing anything like that was Aurora, and she didn't live very long after attempting it.

Lea did some (presumably illusion-based) killing in GS while taking turns as the Rag Lady.  Also likely had some collateral damage during Changes, but that's just conjecture.