Author Topic: New Blackstaff discussion  (Read 27810 times)

Offline Serack

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2017, 07:30:24 PM »
I'm pretty sure I recall something like that from one of the AMA's, including that he tried to stay away from Maggie Sr. so his enemies wouldn't learn she mattered to him up until her powers manifested.

Edit: Oh, yes. That stuck in my memory because it was part of the same answer as something ... uhh ... just a teensy bit important.

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/3lye65/i_am_jim_butcher_author_of_the_dresden_files_and/cvadt1h/

Ah, thanks.  I have a good excuse for why I was having trouble with that information.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2017, 07:44:42 PM »

Okay, here's a slightly different tangent ....

In Changes, we saw the Blackstaff apparently siphoning off the taint of Ebenezar performing a black magic spell (ripping out the lifeforce of the Ramp's Mercs.)

What if all that was being siphoned off wasn't just from that act?  What if he didn't need a staff to perform the spell that pulled the satellite out of orbit, so the Blackstaff wasn't able to pull it out then, but this was the next time the staff was used, and it was taking all of the taint, even from other uses of black magic, out of Eb?
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Offline Quantus

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2017, 08:28:59 PM »
Okay, here's a slightly different tangent ....

In Changes, we saw the Blackstaff apparently siphoning off the taint of Ebenezar performing a black magic spell (ripping out the lifeforce of the Ramp's Mercs.)

What if all that was being siphoned off wasn't just from that act?  What if he didn't need a staff to perform the spell that pulled the satellite out of orbit, so the Blackstaff wasn't able to pull it out then, but this was the next time the staff was used, and it was taking all of the taint, even from other uses of black magic, out of Eb?
Let me make sure Im hearing you: your suggesting that Eb had accumulated Black Magic Taint over the years, and that the instance in Changes was the first time he'd used the Blackstaff in that time and consequently was "catching up" on purging the Black Magic Taint?

Not impossible, though it would surprise me if he hadnt had reason to use the blackstaff in the decade or so of open warfar.  I dont expect that the blackstaff /only/ protects against Black Magic that is channeled through it at the time of casting, though I expect that to be the safest, most efficient, and likely least painful way to go about it. 

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Offline LordDresden2

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2017, 03:19:21 AM »
It really, really is not. A sniper is sent to places where there are known or suspected enemies, his orders coming from a chain of command and only allowed to shoot in that specific instance, in that specific space, at that specific time and often, specific people that are pre-approved.

That depends.  Sometimes there's a specific 'kill list' (which may be just one name), sometimes there's a 'kill category', depending on the situation, and it can be very broad.  For ex, a sniper behind enemy lines doing commando work might be told 'Use your own discretion' and anybody counts as long as its an enemy.

Or a witness.  What do you think a sniper in wartime, behind enemy lines, or in some similar situation, does when he gets spotted by a kid or an innocent bystander or whatever?  Somebody who might tell the enemy about him?  Might give away the entire operation?

And of course, when a sniper is operating unsupervised, even if he has specific orders, it's more or less a matter of faith whether he follows them.

Quote
The Blackstaff has no orders. He has no real oversight. He has full discretion to do whatever he wants (remember, "What's the point of having a license to ignore the Senior Council if I don't use it?"). He is not sent after a target -- he decides who to kill, when to kill, how to kill, and can do so whenever he wants to.

In theory, maybe.  In practice, the Blackstaff has to consider the consequences of his decisions like everybody else.  He's still just one man, honk off enough powerful people and sooner or later it's going to catch up with him.  The Council outnumbers him thousands to one, and could wipe him if they wanted to.  Or if gets too carried away, they could refuse to back him up.  Or they could physical take the blackstaff itself away from him.

Or they could pick him off with a sniper rifle.  Or poison him.  Or whatever.  He's still just one man.


I still find it hard to believe the majority of the White Council is unaware of the Blackstaff.  It's been around for a very long time, and wizards instinctively are curious, and gather knowledge.  It's their nature.  They also seem to associate with the supernatural community, again sources of information on the Blackstaff.

I doubt they know the details.  I don't think most of the outsider supernatural community knows the details, Kincaid is probably an exception there.  But it's pretty likely that both the general Council members and the larger supernatural community (at least the major players, not necessarily people like Anna or the like) know that something exists, and have heard rumors or have their suspicions, even if they don't know the details.

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I think it's more likely that Harry personally didn't know for a number of reasons.

1.  He's young for a wizard
2.  He has been shunned by the Council, and seen a a security risk
3.  Harry avoids the White Council

I think the 3rd reason is the biggest.  Harry has gone out of his way to avoid everything to do with the White Council and only exposes himself to them when he has no choice.   I think most wizard folk who are involved with the Council probably know of, or at least heard whispers of the Blackstaff.  I doubt that they are 100% unaware.  It's more likely that they suspect, but can't confirm.

This^^^.  Harry, at least at the time that he found out about the Blackstaff position, had been making a point of avoiding the rest of the Council for the most part.


Both Maggie Sr. and Harry were and are members of the White Council. I.e., the White Council has outright told him to take out its own members.

Yep.  That's a big part of his job.  To take down the warlocks that are so badass, so powerful, or so whatever that the Wardens can't handle them on their own.  That's not his only job, but it's a big chunk of it.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2017, 12:17:53 PM »
That depends.  Sometimes there's a specific 'kill list' (which may be just one name), sometimes there's a 'kill category', depending on the situation, and it can be very broad.  For ex, a sniper behind enemy lines doing commando work might be told 'Use your own discretion' and anybody counts as long as its an enemy.

Or a witness.  What do you think a sniper in wartime, behind enemy lines, or in some similar situation, does when he gets spotted by a kid or an innocent bystander or whatever?  Somebody who might tell the enemy about him?  Might give away the entire operation?

And of course, when a sniper is operating unsupervised, even if he has specific orders, it's more or less a matter of faith whether he follows them.
Even so, that's in a specific context, and the sniper is given specific instruction that he has discretion. The Blackstaff has that kind of discretion all the time, without having to be told.

Quote
In theory, maybe.  In practice, the Blackstaff has to consider the consequences of his decisions like everybody else.  He's still just one man, honk off enough powerful people and sooner or later it's going to catch up with him.  The Council outnumbers him thousands to one, and could wipe him if they wanted to.  Or if gets too carried away, they could refuse to back him up.  Or they could physical take the blackstaff itself away from him.

Or they could pick him off with a sniper rifle.  Or poison him.  Or whatever.  He's still just one man.
He should, yes. But until they catch up to him, he can get away with a lot, and we haven't seen anything in the way of oversight. Given it's a secret position that's not really supposed to exist, it's not like he's filling out after-action reports.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2017, 01:42:20 PM »
He should, yes. But until they catch up to him, he can get away with a lot, and we haven't seen anything in the way of oversight. Given it's a secret position that's not really supposed to exist, it's not like he's filling out after-action reports.
You know, would he?  Not challenging your statement, I really dont know, but Im trying to compare it with my Hollywood knowledge of clandestine acts.  Assume he has nominal transparency with the Senior Council, because if they dont know about him they cant keep the secret or know not to execute him after.   So for the sake of argument assume that he at least Informs the SC of his activities, if not actually asks permission.  Would an organization such as the Council do so in Writing?  Would it be Word of Mouth Only?  They are pretty big in to modern bureaucracy, especially on the military/warden side of the organization, so some sort of Top Secret division of their record keeping wouldnt be out of the question.  On the other hand, records of Clandestine activities often do more Harm than Good in both short and long terms, so maybe not.
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Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2017, 10:54:14 PM »
The thing I wonder is that can the staff be used in rituals, or in magic where more than one magic user is involved? I am talking one of those large scale magic acts. Something akin to the ritual the rcv attempted.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2017, 10:58:37 PM »
The Blackstaff is the least of people's worries.  A wizard with a licence to kill?  Big deal.  Rashid is a wizard who can let Outsiders sneak past the Gates.  Harry is a a wizard that can release dark gods unto Earth.  According to Jim all the those on the Senior Council have uber powerful secret powers...  The Blackstaff is not a big deal when it comes to all the other stuff going on.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2017, 01:51:42 AM »
Except it's not about the power he has, it's about the hypocrisy inherent in him existing.

The Merlin is incredibly powerful, people don't mind that so much.  But having the Council say "the rules apply to everyone... Except him, he's cool," that people would mind.

Offline groinkick

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2017, 05:13:37 AM »
Except it's not about the power he has, it's about the hypocrisy inherent in him existing.

The Merlin is incredibly powerful, people don't mind that so much.  But having the Council say "the rules apply to everyone... Except him, he's cool," that people would mind.

The Merlin is one of the absolutely biggest opponents of dark magic, and absolute in carrying out punishment against those who wield it.  The fact that he hasn't openly apposed the position shows that he recognizes it's importance. 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline peregrine

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2017, 01:47:27 PM »
Other things the Merlin has not openly opposed: The Black Council.

Offline groinkick

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2017, 06:57:46 PM »
Other things the Merlin has not openly opposed: The Black Council.

The Black Council is harry's invention, a name he created for unseen powers working against the Council  We don't even know if Langry is aware of it or not.  Even if he did his not talking about it is for obvious reasons.  One of the biggest advantages against the Black Council is if you know of them, but they don't know that you know.  So you can work against them.  The other is it could drive more wizards toward them.

Him not talking about the Black Council is apples and oranges.  The Blackstaff is someone who is part of the Council.  If he were apposed to it he could speak freely about it.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2017, 08:01:47 PM »
The Merlin is one of the absolutely biggest opponents of dark magic, and absolute in carrying out punishment against those who wield it.  The fact that he hasn't openly apposed the position shows that he recognizes it's importance.
The fact he's unopposed to it is the problem, from the point of view of the average White Council member.

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Offline groinkick

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2017, 08:11:15 PM »
The fact he's unopposed to it is the problem, from the point of view of the average White Council member.

You aren't a White Council member so you don't know from their point of view.  If they are aware of the Blackstaff they might take great comfort in the fact that there are dark wizards, and creatures out there that are terrified of the Blackstaff knocking on their door.  By the claims being made you would think the Blackstaff is a homicidal maniac that murders people for the fun of it.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2017, 08:37:58 PM »
You aren't a White Council member so you don't know from their point of view.
And you do?

Quote
If they are aware of the Blackstaff they might take great comfort in the fact that there are dark wizards, and creatures out there that are terrified of the Blackstaff knocking on their door.  By the claims being made you would think the Blackstaff is a homicidal maniac that murders people for the fun of it.
That's really not how people work when they find out about something like that.

Consider when we all that information about the CIA and NSA surveillance was leaked. Was the general reaction, "Well, I'm glad that the NSA is keeping an eye out for security risks!" or was it, "Holy shit, the government is watching us all! This is terrible!"

You're making an assumption about the White Council that just plain runs counter to human nature. Wizards are used to being the most powerful person in the room. Do you really think they're totally OK with someone who has license to wipe them off the map using powers they're not allowed to use?

The point is the White Council does not know who the Blackstaff is, how he operates, on what basis he picks his targets, or what ethics he has. You're speaking from the perspective of knowing the Blackstaff is an extremely honorable, judicious man. The White Council doesn't know that. All they know is that there's someone out there who's allowed to break all the rules they'd be put to death for even skirting.

And they don't know what the Blackstaff itself does -- so they'd think either A. the whole "your soul will rot" thing is bunk, or B. that the Council's personal, secret hitman is constantly making himself more of a psychotic murderer.
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