New Blackstaff discussion

[groinkick]

We were having quite the discussion on another topic and I thought it would be better to talk about it in a new one rather than someone else's subject that wasn't about the Blackstaff.

[groinkick]

That's still not what deployed means.

In this context, deployed would mean they told Ebenezer, "Go to this specific place and do this specific thing." They apparently do not and cannot enforce it when they do give him an instruction.

Decided to move off of this because there hasn't really been any evidence in the books if the Council has or hasn't directed Eb to do attacks or if he acts completely on his own.  I personally believe he is directed to attack some things, but to the Council they want deniability, so the Council will deny any knowledge if he's found out to be the attacker.

Again: That is not what war zone means. You keep using the term in a way that does not match what it means.

I guess I'm more loose with the definition.  I see a war zone as any place that there is conflict, but not necessarily a declared war.  Examples include the United States bombing Syria even though war has not actually been declared.  Or a better example would be the Cold War in which the CIA was conducting secret missions that included assassinating people.  Or a proxy war in which the United States assisted Afghanistan in killing Russians, or when the Russians were helping kill Americans in Vietnam.  War had not been declared in these situations between the U.S. and Russia but deaths resulted in these proxy wars, and undeclared wars.

Please tell me where we have confirmation that the White Council was in an active state of war against the Fallen, when the Dark Wizards organized into a force that could war with the White Council, when they were at war with the Old Gods in the course of Ebenezer's time with the Blackstaff.

War need not be declared for action to be taken.  Also we have very little info on when the Blackstaff has taken action.  It's just speculation.

I.e., the acts Ebenezer committed as the Blackstaff happened in a time when the White Council explicitly was not at war.

Countries take military action all the time without actually declaring war.  The United States strikes in Syria have been done without war being declared by either side.

The only ones we have hints about are the people who messed with his wife (not a world-ending threat, a personal vendetta)

Will have to wait to read before making a judgement

and Ortega (again, a personal vendetta -- and do you think all his human servants deserved it?).

You have used Eb's own words to describe the Blackstaff.  So will I.  He stated the attack was in response to the attack on Archangel, and the death of Simon, a senior Council member.  His response was exactly what the Blackstaff was created for.  He struck a target that the White Council could not attack without massive casualties.  The Council would have had to resort to guns, and swords to avoid killing innocents with magic.  Ortega was using the Council's laws against them by surrounding himself with mortals that the White Council could not attack with magic.

Eb's attack was exactly what his position was designed for.  To attack an enemy of the White Council using it's laws against it.  My opinion is it was an attack by the White Council in response to the attack on Archangel.

We know he tried to hit Lord Raith (again, a personal vendetta -- over someone the Senior Council wanted dead anyway, so they wouldn't have ordered it).

He doesn't need to be the Blackstaff to have done the three attacks.  Killing non humans is perfectly fine with the White Council.  His failed attempts on Raith actually are evidence he didn't use the Blackstaff.  He attempted magic that slipped off of Raith.  Raith is however vulnerable to bodily attacks like bullets.  Eb could have used something similar to what he used on Ortega but did not, that's evidence that he wasn't using his position as the Blackstaff and was working within the laws of magic as a normal wizard.

The point is, nobody on the White Council knows who Ebenezer as the Blackstaff is killing or why. The nature of his job means that nobody is supposed to know.

I actually think this is wrong.  I thought it was right earlier but upon reflection of his conversation with Harry I think he's much more like a CIA agent and that his being above the laws of magic is actually his get out of jail free card.  It's similar to someone taking orders to conduct a mission, but then later on when there is new leadership they want to prosecute the person for that mission.  The Blackstaff protects the person who's conducting those missions.  I think the  2 confirmed attacks that were performed in the books both could have actually been ordered by the White Council.  I have to reread the quote but cannot find the book right now.

The point is it could happen. That the existence of a secret assassin who's allowed to break all the rules that everyone else is under the threat of death to obey, and who the potential targets have no say about is terrifying. It doesn't matter what Ebenezer has actually done with the position; the point is he could extremely easily either kill whoever he wants, or kill whoever the Senior Council deems a problem, and both situations are and should be terrifying to the lower ranking members.

Seriously, based on his known hits and attempted hits, pissing off Ebenezer personally is the only real requirement for the Blackstaff to wipe you and everyone within about a mile of your current position off the face of the planet.

I think my posts on the strike against Ortega, and Raith point to the holes in this argument.  As for the attacks on his wife, that book isn't out

[Zaphodess]

The point of a black-ops person/organization is that it does not officially exist. It can't hurt if people (your enemies, but also individual members) assume there is one, though. Because the existence of them poses a threat in itself. They won't try to do certain things in the first place.

I think the Blackstaff is an open secret and the White Council, especially the SC, maintain plausible deniability about his actions. Ebenezar has talked about having been given orders. But I think those were never literally orders like the Wardens get them. Certainly not in paper anywhere. It's probably more like a behind-very-closed doors conversation where Ebenezar is made aware of a problem. As the Blackstaff, he has the right to deal with it how he thinks apropriate. He might use his license to break any of the Laws, but he also might not use it. His 'superiors' probably prefer him finding an alternative solution.

Like he did with Simon (Paranet papers). He issued a couple of friendly warnings and veiled threats and Simon understood them perfectly well and behaved after that. 

It could be that he used his position as Blackstaff back when he got Harry the Doom of Damocles instead of a beheading at his trial. Not openly, because he can't tell he is the Blackstaff. But I wouldn't be surprised if he had argued privately that executing an apprentice for defending himself against his warlock master is exactly the kind of thing he's supposed to take care of: the letter of the Law being used against its intent.

As for him being accountable for his actions ... he is and he isn't. I don't think the SC has the right to tell him outright to do something or not. His office allows him to use his own discretion. But he can't be allowed to abuse it either. He certainly has to be careful and be able to justify his decisions if necessary. The SC has to be aware of the risk that any given Blackstaff might become a warlock, despite the safeguards. Ebenezar might be disciplined and morally grounded enough to be careful anyway. But that might not be the case for the next Blackstaff. Or some of the historical ones. I wouldn't be surprised if there have been Blackstaffs who had to be killed by the SC and a couple of Wardens because they went too trigger-happy or mad.

[Mr. Death]

Decided to move off of this because there hasn't really been any evidence in the books if the Council has or hasn't directed Eb to do attacks or if he acts completely on his own.  I personally believe he is directed to attack some things, but to the Council they want deniability, so the Council will deny any knowledge if he's found out to be the attacker.

I doubt the Council directed him to attack the guys who went after his wife, or after Lord Raith.

Point is, the only person who really decides who Ebenezer hits are Ebenezer, and not in a, "Here's your target, it's your call to make the shot" way, but a, "You can pick and choose your targets entirely without us being part of the process."

I guess I'm more loose with the definition.  I see a war zone as any place that there is conflict, but not necessarily a declared war.  Examples include the United States bombing Syria even though war has not actually been declared.  Or a better example would be the Cold War in which the CIA was conducting secret missions that included assassinating people.  Or a proxy war in which the United States assisted Afghanistan in killing Russians, or when the Russians were helping kill Americans in Vietnam.  War had not been declared in these situations between the U.S. and Russia but deaths resulted in these proxy wars, and undeclared wars.

The cold war wasn't a "war zone," and yes, you're being so loose with the definition that it's just not the right term anymore. Point is, a sniper is sent somewhere. The Blackstaff has total autonomy.

War need not be declared for action to be taken.  Also we have very little info on when the Blackstaff has taken action.  It's just speculation. Countries take military action all the time without actually declaring war.  The United States strikes in Syria have been done without war being declared by either side.

The Blackstaff isn't a military force. It's an assassin, one that has total discretion to pick and choose its targets and methods without any apparent input or restraint from its supposed governing body.

It's less James Bond, and more The Punisher.

You have used Eb's own words to describe the Blackstaff.  So will I.  He stated the attack was in response to the attack on Archangel, and the death of Simon, a senior Council member.  His response was exactly what the Blackstaff was created for.  He struck a target that the White Council could not attack without massive casualties.  The Council would have had to resort to guns, and swords to avoid killing innocents with magic.  Ortega was using the Council's laws against them by surrounding himself with mortals that the White Council could not attack with magic.

If it was really in response to Simon, I think it would've happened a lot sooner. Instead it happens literally the week after Ortega tries to kill Harry. I kiiiiiiinda doubt that was a coincidence.

Incidentally, if you're going to use his words...

"He killed Simon. My friend. Then he came here and tried to kill you, Hoss. And he was coming back here to finis the job as soon as he recovered. So I hit Casaverde."

His directly stated reasoning was that he hit Casaverde because Ortega was planning to come back and kill Harry. Yes, he's mad about Simon, but the direct reason is Harry. A personal vendetta.

Eb's attack was exactly what his position was designed for.  To attack an enemy of the White Council using it's laws against it.  My opinion is it was an attack by the White Council in response to the attack on Archangel.

Ebenezer himself says it was because Ortega planned to attack Harry.

He doesn't need to be the Blackstaff to have done the three attacks.  Killing non humans is perfectly fine with the White Council.  His failed attempts on Raith actually are evidence he didn't use the Blackstaff.  He attempted magic that slipped off of Raith.  Raith is however vulnerable to bodily attacks like bullets.  Eb could have used something similar to what he used on Ortega but did not, that's evidence that he wasn't using his position as the Blackstaff and was working within the laws of magic as a normal wizard.

That's not evidence at all. We don't know the mechanism of the satellite spell; it could have been like the Moloccio, which was linked to a specific person, and thus the link would slip off of Raith. Or he didn't have a handy satellite and tried something more direct.

But you're right that we don't know he was doing it as the Blackstaff, so I'll drop that point.

As for the others, they're acknowledged by Ebenezer himself as being done with the Blackstaff.

I actually think this is wrong.  I thought it was right earlier but upon reflection of his conversation with Harry I think he's much more like a CIA agent and that his being above the laws of magic is actually his get out of jail free card.  It's similar to someone taking orders to conduct a mission, but then later on when there is new leadership they want to prosecute the person for that mission.  The Blackstaff protects the person who's conducting those missions.  I think the  2 confirmed attacks that were performed in the books both could have actually been ordered by the White Council.  I have to reread the quote but cannot find the book right now.

"could have actually been" is not evidence. We know three times that Ebenezer used the Blackstaff and for what.

1. He killed the people who went after his wife (and thousands of others who happened to be nearby; I think it was the volcano he made erupt).
2. He killed the people who went after Harry
3. He killed 200 mercenaries working for the people who were trying to kill Maggie.

The first is obviously personal. The second he admits was completely personal. The third is something that the Merlin had specifically told Harry he didn't want done.

We don't know what the other hits were, but of the ones we have, none seem to have been ordered by the White Council.

And even if they did give orders, Ebenezer self-admittedly has full autonomy to ignore them.

[Snark Knight]

If it was really in response to Simon, I think it would've happened a lot sooner. Instead it happens literally the week after Ortega tries to kill Harry. I kiiiiiiinda doubt that was a coincidence.

Of course that was his real primary motivation, but the point was Archangel was still a good enough excuse for him to act against Casaverde, as far as any accountability to the rest of the of the Senior Council is concerned. He could spin it that it took a while to ascertain Archangel was Ortega's op, and by the point he was sure who to retaliate against, the duel was already on the table so he wanted to see if Harry would take care of the problem for him, but Oretga's cheating forced Eb to revert to Plan A.

We don't know what the other hits were, but of the ones we have, none seem to have been ordered by the White Council.

I think we've got pretty good basis for linking New Madrid to retaliation for the attack on his wife. The others he told Harry about  were Krakatoa and the Tunguska Event. For reasons I've elaborated elsewhere I suspect Tunguska was about wiping out a concentration of high-value BCV targets who were trying to ride out the Stokerlypse somewhere remote - if I'm right about that, the Council would have been happy to see that happen, but we have no real idea whether it was ordered or at his own initiative.

Krakatoa is an odder one. There were geological warnings signs quite a ways ahead, so that target can't have been someone mobile who could just leave via the NN. It has to have been some sort of fixed stronghold that needed to be got rid of, but whose it might have been is a puzzle.

[dspringer1]

The Blackstaff is not an assassin or a black ops "capability".  I think too many people are labeling him as such -- and then using that label to justify their explanation of how he operates. 

Let us be clear.
1) the White council does NOT need an assassin.  They can kill their enemies pretty easily without a Blackstaff. The only exception would be human enemies which are covered by the laws.   Renegades warlocks can be hunted down within the laws.  White Council has procedures to deal with lesser issues within their ranks.  So really we are talking about vanilla humans -- and issues with vanilla humans that require a Blackstaff have to be extremely rare. 

2) the Blackstaff is not some super duper secret black operative that allows the White Council to act without consequences.  Anything the Black Staff does will be assumed to be Council policy by any of the supernatural powers -- even if they do not know of the position.  A wizard did it -- and the wizard is not a hunted warlock  - so White Council is responsible.

3) What the Blackstaff is an exception to the laws of magic.  If an enemy "uses" the laws of magic to protect themselves from the White Council, the Blackstaff can still act.   By definition, actions that break the laws of magic are not "good" actions and probably involve a lot of death and destruction.     For example, there are dozens of wizards who can cause a volcano to explode, but only the Blackstaff can do so if it involves significant risk of human death.  That is why Harry labeled Eb an Assassin -- as his actions as Blackstaff often involve the death of humans by magic.  (which is true of the examples Kincaid gave).   But other examples like mind raping a prisoner to get intelligence or opening the outer gates to achieve some important objective or using necromancy to disrupt a major dark hallow ritual. 

4) the Blackstaff is not some super adept with dark magic.   They can do dark magic, but I doubt they do so much of any one type that they become highly skilled.  One of Kemler's disciples is probably a way better necromancer than Eb could possibly be (unless you believe he is Cowl of course). 

[Zaphodess]

3. He killed 200 mercenaries working for the people who were trying to kill Maggie.

...The third is something that the Merlin had specifically told Harry he didn't want done.

As had Ebenezar himself before he knew it wasn't just about the life of the little girl. And who she was, admittedly.

Eb had to convince a couple of other wizards to join him, so we can safely assume that the scope of what the RC had planned at CI justified a reevaluation of that order. Some people believe that the Merlin might actually have joined them. I don't believe this, but it's not impossible.

The mortals Eb killed there were mercenaries working for the enemy. Who must have seen what the RC did to humans. I don't feel too sorry for them.

As Snark Knight pointed out about Casaverde, his personal motivation wasn't the only one. There were good reasons to do it apart from them. The same holds true for CI. They managed to exterminate the RC that night, ending the war. Probably ending Cristos' gamble for political power. And a blood-line curse used against a powerful wizard is a threat to the whole White Council. They can't allow this to happen to any member. Because lots of them have family and those kinds of tactics must not be encouraged.

[Zaphodess]

2) the Blackstaff is not some super duper secret black operative that allows the White Council to act without consequences.  Anything the Black Staff does will be assumed to be Council policy by any of the supernatural powers -- even if they do not know of the position.  A wizard did it -- and the wizard is not a hunted warlock  - so White Council is responsible.

Not disagreeing, just wanted to add that this might be exactly why the Council needs the Blackstaff. Whether you want to call him a black-ops person or not isn't the point. The fact is, he allows them to act when their own rules - which they enforce with a vengeance - wouldn't. They can't afford to appear to be weak and enemies using mortals to hide behind them might occasionally make them look stupid, incompetent and weak.

I haven't seen this new WoJ about Eb's wife yet, so I can't base too much on it. Imo, Eb might have been able to justify his actions with pointing out that the Council can't afford to allow their enemies to use a wizard's family members as a means to make a wizard do what they want. As in any wizard, not just he himself.

[Snark Knight]

Like he did with Simon (Paranet papers). He issued a couple of friendly warnings and veiled threats and Simon understood them perfectly well and behaved after that. 

I don't have the RPG to have read the Paranet material. What was Simon dabbling into that got him a warning?

Because maaaybe he didn't so much behave himself after that as get sneakier about about dissociating his research interests from his public pesona ... (cough - Cowl - cough)

[Zaphodess]

I don't have the RPG to have read the Paranet material. What was Simon dabbling into that got him a warning?

Because maaaybe he didn't so much behave himself after that as get sneakier about about dissociating his research interests from his public pesona ... (cough - Cowl - cough)

He was friends with Tsar Nicolas and the WC suspected that he assisted him with magic. The final straw apparently was that he accompanied the Tsar to the front lines during WWI. There were no open accusations and no proof, but there were suspicions that Simon broke the Laws to help his friend. Eb handled the situation by writing him a couple of letters with 'friendly' advice. Veiled threats really, that while there wasn't officially a case against him, the Blackstaff could always handle matters. The threats were enough to convince Simon to retreat to Archangel and be a good boy afterwards. Whether he really behaved or just became more proficient in keeping a low profile is anyone's guess. The fact that the Tsar and all his family were murdered and the political situation in Russia became very 'interesting' could indicate either, imo. There's a lot of room for speculation and conspiracy theories left in the material. Probably intentionally.

[groinkick]

1. He killed the people who went after his wife (and thousands of others who happened to be nearby; I think it was the volcano he made erupt).
2. He killed the people who went after Harry
3. He killed 200 mercenaries working for the people who were trying to kill Maggie.

The first is obviously personal. The second he admits was completely personal. The third is something that the Merlin had specifically told Harry he didn't want done.

We don't know what the other hits were, but of the ones we have, none seem to have been ordered by the White Council.

And even if they did give orders, Ebenezer self-admittedly has full autonomy to ignore them.

Ok you're quoting a book that hasn't even been written.  You can't use that as evidence.  Unless you want to link WOJ that flat out says the only reason he targeted a group was because they were targeting his wife, and no other reason.

He targeted the Red Court, and Ortega who was behind the attack.  He didn't hit Ortega until after the attack on Archangel that killed a huge number of council members including a Senior Council member.  If that isn't an act of war I don't know what is.  You have used Eb's words as evidence.  Here are some more.  He said the attack was for Simon.

He killed 200 mercenaries working for the Red Court who the White Council was at war with.  They were trying to unleash a bloodline curse that would assassinate a Senior Council member.  He was also helping leading an attack against the senior leadership of the Red Court.  Would he have done all this if it was purely to save his granddaughter?  Probably, but that's not evidence because the attack in question was hugely important.  So important that Odin showed up.  Did Odin get involved just for Maggie too?  What about TWG?  A KoTC was there, was TWG only there for Maggie as well?

[Mr. Death]

Ok you're quoting a book that hasn't even been written.  You can't use that as evidence.  Unless you want to link WOJ that flat out says the only reason he targeted a group was because they were targeting his wife, and no other reason.

It's not going to be in a book as far as I know. It was WOJ. I don't have the link, but I'm looking for it. I know it's out there. Maybe I need to summon Serack...

He targeted the Red Court, and Ortega who was behind the attack.  He didn't hit Ortega until after the attack on Archangel that killed a huge number of council members including a Senior Council member.  If that isn't an act of war I don't know what is.  You have used Eb's words as evidence.  Here are some more.  He said the attack was for Simon.

I just quoted and bolded the bit where he says he did it directly because Ortega was coming after Harry again.

He didn't hit it after Archangel. He hit it a solid year or more after Archangel, and his stated immediate reason was that Ortega was coming to kill Harry. It's right there, still on the page.

He killed 200 mercenaries working for the Red Court who the White Council was at war with.  They were trying to unleash a bloodline curse that would assassinate a Senior Council member.  He was also helping leading an attack against the senior leadership of the Red Court.  Would he have done all this if it was purely to save his granddaughter?  Probably, but that's not evidence because the attack in question was hugely important.  So important that Odin showed up.  Did Odin get involved just for Maggie too?  What about TWG?  A KoTC was there, was TWG only there for Maggie as well?

Everyone else's motives aren't really germane.

What we have is the Blackstaff participating in an operation that's Grey Council -- an organization that Ebenezar formed explicitly to go around the White Council. And an operation that the Merlin himself said shouldn't be happening.

You can't point at Ebenezer's secret attack with his secret organization that he's kept secret from the White Council and is going against the stated will of the White Council as an example of Ebenezer following the orders of the White Council.

[Rasins]

What we have is the Blackstaff participating in an operation that's Grey Council -- an organization that Ebenezar formed explicitly to go around the White Council. And an operation that the Merlin himself said shouldn't be happening.

You can't point at Ebenezer's secret attack with his secret organization that he's kept secret from the White Council and is going against the stated will of the White Council as an example of Ebenezer following the orders of the White Council.

Well, now that's not entirely the case.

If you'll recall, when Harry was talking to the Merlin in the Worry Room, along with Luccio and Molly, Langtry said that they were going to hit the Rampires so hard, that they were going to take them out, "root and branch".

That sound pretty much like they were planning on doing something really big and taking out all of the Rampires.  That sounds an aweful lot like an all out offensive or a black ops mission.  Given the talks going on with Arianna in Edinburgh, I'd say it was a Black Ops mission.  And I'd bet that Ebenezar is the head of the Black Ops for the Council.

On to the other subject.... The blackstaff has been given the office to defy the will of the Council when they see fit.  This does not mean that He cannot go along with the will of the council, even though the will of the Council may need to be secret.  It just means that they cannot ORDER him to do something and expect him to blindly fulfill the order.

The example given in text was his NOT killing Harry when he was apprenticing him.

Now, was the hit on Ortega in Casa Verde a sanctioned Council attack, or a personal one ... Who knows?  But we do know that Ortega was the war general for the Rampires, so he's a prime target.  In reality, there is no reason why it couldn't have been BOTH, sanctioned AND personal.

[Quantus]

Well, now that's not entirely the case.

If you'll recall, when Harry was talking to the Merlin in the Worry Room, along with Luccio and Molly, Langtry said that they were going to hit the Rampires so hard, that they were going to take them out, "root and branch".

That sound pretty much like they were planning on doing something really big and taking out all of the Rampires.  That sounds an aweful lot like an all out offensive or a black ops mission.  Given the talks going on with Arianna in Edinburgh, I'd say it was a Black Ops mission.  And I'd bet that Ebenezar is the head of the Black Ops for the Council.

OK, Ive seen this theory come up from lots of different folks, and I have to say I hate the argument to the very core.  A Boast about a vague future goal Abstract Declaration Victory does NOT allow you to claim credit!

It's like if the US President were to say "Im Going to Defeat North Korea" and then a few days later china Bombed it off the map, and then suddenly the White Houses Supporters start trying to claim the credit.  Except in this example China would exist and have originally been formed specifically to avoid US involvement.   

[Mr. Death]

The White Council is capable of fielding hundreds of Wardens.

If you're going to wipe out an enemy "root and branch," you send those hundreds. Not 12 guys.

Or you drop a satellite on them when they're all sitting in the same spot.

Dropping in on Chichen Itza like that only makes sense if the goal was to get Maggie Jr. out and it did not have official White Council support. While the Merlin would support wiping out the vampires, he didn't care one bit about Maggie Jr. and wouldn't want to use up resources and favors on an attack with such a minuscule chance of success, and whose success ultimately depended on a bunch of factors the Merlin couldn't have counted on.