Author Topic: New Blackstaff discussion  (Read 27813 times)

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2017, 09:51:01 PM »
I wonder if McCoy went after lord Raith using the Blackstaff. It is believed that relic is an epic one, yet the protections that Wcv stood against it. A staff that allows the seven laws being broken, yet it was held back. The thing is that it is believed the protections are outsiders based, so a staff that could freely break the seventh law, should be able to counter it.
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Offline Phobos

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2017, 10:31:34 PM »
I wonder if McCoy went after lord Raith using the Blackstaff. It is believed that relic is an epic one, yet the protections that Wcv stood against it. A staff that allows the seven laws being broken, yet it was held back. The thing is that it is believed the protections are outsiders based, so a staff that could freely break the seventh law, should be able to counter it.

That would work only if McCoy was foolish enough to think it would be worth the risk/cost of summoning an Outsider to tangle with Raith's sponsor. Also considering Harry's statement in CD about how the Outsiders work in complete concert I do not believe it is likely they would have given Raith that kind of protection if he wasn't a part of there larger goal(s). The fact McCoy didn't go that route, based on his statements in BR, I think shows why he has the staff in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 11:57:22 PM by Phobos »

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2017, 11:49:24 PM »
He didn't hit it after Archangel. He hit it a solid year or more after Archangel, and his stated immediate reason was that Ortega was coming to kill Harry. It's right there, still on the page.
Everyone else's motives aren't really germane.

As I recall it, Death Masks fell in the autumn of the same year as Summer Knight. Four or five months is easier to reconcile with taking a while to figure out who to hit back against.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2017, 11:58:23 PM »
The White Council is capable of fielding hundreds of Wardens.
If you're going to wipe out an enemy "root and branch," you send those hundreds. Not 12 guys.

Normally, yes. But Arianna had got the bulk of their numbers too sick to fight effectively.

That most of the SC were among those who avoided exposure to her thanks to their ploy with using decoys on stage at least circumstantially favours the possibility that some of the uninfected Eb found to help with the raid might have been other SC members.

Offline Serack

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2017, 01:54:19 PM »
It's not going to be in a book as far as I know. It was WOJ. I don't have the link, but I'm looking for it. I know it's out there. Maybe I need to summon Serack...

All I've got on hand is that she was around during Eb's adventures during the French and Indian War, and that she probably died around 1810, but that his recollection of it is vague.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2017, 02:12:06 PM »
This is the only one that comes to mind for me, and I'd sorta think that her being the instigating motivation for a major historical disaster/slaughter would make her more significant than just "she was mortal"?

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Offline Serack

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2017, 02:43:28 PM »
ARE WE EVER GOING TO MEET LEFAY'S MOTHER?

 As in Ebenezar's wife?  Well, not unless we go back and do the French and Indian War thing probably.

ARE WE GOING TO FIND OUT WHO SHE IS?

She was a mortal.  She died somewhere around 1810 I think.  I've got it all written down somewhere.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2017, 02:47:08 PM »
Damn. I could have sworn there was something more recent -- either a public appearance or an AMA -- where he said someone tried going after her to get to him, and one of the events he mentions in Blood Rites was him getting revenge.

Going by the timeline, it'd have to be New Madrid, since it's in 1812.

Sadly, the search function on the forums sucks and I haven't been able to find the reference :(
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Offline Rasins

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2017, 02:59:44 PM »
OK, Ive seen this theory come up from lots of different folks, and I have to say I hate the argument to the very core.  A Boast about a vague future goal Abstract Declaration Victory does NOT allow you to claim credit!

It's like if the US President were to say "Im Going to Defeat North Korea" and then a few days later china Bombed it off the map, and then suddenly the White Houses Supporters start trying to claim the credit.  Except in this example China would exist and have originally been formed specifically to avoid US involvement.

Well, there are a couple of possibilities here.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that Langtry was planning on what Harry did.

However, Vadderung knew what was going on, and so the knowledge was available.  It's entirely possible that Langtry had intended on doing the same thing that Harry ended up doing, but Harry beat him to it.  OR Langtry pushed Harry in that direction while they were in the Worry Room.

Another possibility is that Langtry planned on using the Wardens, who at that time were not sick, in an assault on Chichen Itza, or elsewhere and attempt to wipe them out.  You have to remember that until this point, Langtry had been waging a defensive war, for the most part.

My point was that Harry has a talent for turning an enemy's own weapon against said enemy.  No reason that talent can't be used against the outsiders at the Outer Gates.
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Offline dspringer1

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2017, 03:28:00 PM »
Why is everybody obsessing over whether Eb had permission in Changes when he went to town against the Reds?   The fact that Eb was the blackstaff is ONLY relevant to the extent that he used death magic to kill those human guards.  But if Eb had limited himself to targeting Red court vampires or disabling humans, there is no issue.   

The White Council is not like the CIA or FBI.  It is not an agency with a centralized command structure and wizards do not routinely act on orders.   It is much more like a fraternity which gives its members broad freedom of action within very rigid boundaries set by the laws of magic, the rules of the White Council and the treaty obligations like the Unseelee accords.  Harry has gone out and killed loads of supernatural bad guys without specific white council permission - or the expectation that this permission was even expected.    The organizational culture of the WC was set in medieval times and probably resembles more an guild of master craftsmen or perhaps a conclave of nobility than a modern corporation, army or government organization.  It is a group of independent and powerful peers, not a strongly hierarchical organization. 

Since the White Council is at war with the Red, any wizard is pretty much free to attack the Red Court whenever and wherever they wish -- provided they do not otherwise break the laws, accords or other white council rules.   They White Council would "prefer" you coordinate your actions with their wardens as that makes the WC as a whole more effective.   The wardens are often given orders like soldiers, but I suspect even wardens are not expected to "only" attack the red court under SC orders.   Eb is not a warden, so even that restriction does not apply. 

My personal opinion is that the WC restrictions on the Blackstaff are more strategic than tactical.  The WC may point the BS at specific problems.   The WC may censure the BS if the BS goes to far or abuses the position.  I imagine the BS position could be revoked if abused, but I doubt that has ever happened.   I imagine that only the most trusted of wizards would be allowed to take that position.   

That said, I do think Eb might be the most powerful Blackstaff since the original Merlin (who is suspect was the first).  Blackstaff and Senior Council member -- that is a very powerful combination. 

Offline Serack

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2017, 04:03:53 PM »
Damn. I could have sworn there was something more recent -- either a public appearance or an AMA -- where he said someone tried going after her to get to him, and one of the events he mentions in Blood Rites was him getting revenge.

Going by the timeline, it'd have to be New Madrid, since it's in 1812.

Sadly, the search function on the forums sucks and I haven't been able to find the reference :(

I remember something vaguely like that, but when I researched your question, I came up with other references that sidetracked me so I'm unsure.

Unfortunately, my latest compilation update missed a lot of stuff that hadn't been transcribed.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2017, 04:51:12 PM »
My personal opinion is that the WC restrictions on the Blackstaff are more strategic than tactical.  The WC may point the BS at specific problems.   The WC may censure the BS if the BS goes to far or abuses the position.  I imagine the BS position could be revoked if abused, but I doubt that has ever happened.   I imagine that only the most trusted of wizards would be allowed to take that position.   

That said, I do think Eb might be the most powerful Blackstaff since the original Merlin (who is suspect was the first).  Blackstaff and Senior Council member -- that is a very powerful combination.

There are no restrictions on the Blackstaff.  That's kind of the point.  Per Eb, he's been given the right and duty to defy the will of the council whenever he sees fit.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2017, 05:27:51 PM »
I think the debate between Mr. Death and myself is a good realistic way the Council would react.  There would probably be a pretty even split on the idea of the Blackstaff.  If there was a large amount of upset people, the things the Blackstaff did to protect the White Council would probably be used as examples to it's importance.  This would result in a minority of people on both sides of the issue digging in their heels while the majority would except it with reservations, and probably demand some type of oversight.

That is if they don't already know about it which I suspect at least members who are 100+ years old probably know or suspect of the Blackstaff's existence.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 05:30:51 PM by groinkick »
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Offline Rasins

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2017, 05:33:13 PM »
I think the debate between Mr. Death and myself is a good realistic way the Council would react.  There would probably be a pretty even split on the idea of the Blackstaff.  If there was a large amount of upset people, the things the Blackstaff did to protect the White Council would probably be used as examples to it's importance.  This would result in a minority of people on both sides of the issue digging in their heels while the majority would except it with reservations, and probably demand some type of oversight.

That is if they don't already know about it which I suspect at least members who are 100+ years old probably know or suspect of the Blackstaff's existence.

If they even care to think about it.

I could totally see Legions of Wizards just wanting to be left alone to do their own thing.  They don't want to get involved with, nor pay any attention to the movers and shakers of the world.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: New Blackstaff discussion
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2017, 06:01:23 PM »
Damn. I could have sworn there was something more recent -- either a public appearance or an AMA -- where he said someone tried going after her to get to him, and one of the events he mentions in Blood Rites was him getting revenge.

I'm pretty sure I recall something like that from one of the AMA's, including that he tried to stay away from Maggie Sr. so his enemies wouldn't learn she mattered to him up until her powers manifested.

Edit: Oh, yes. That stuck in my memory because it was part of the same answer as something ... uhh ... just a teensy bit important.

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/3lye65/i_am_jim_butcher_author_of_the_dresden_files_and/cvadt1h/
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 06:14:22 PM by Snark Knight »