Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?

[groinkick]

Don't look at the Blackstaff like a cop or an FBI agent. The Blackstaff is an assassin, a hitman, who makes problems for the White Council go away.

Without any kind of public process, no vote, no trial, nothing between the Council deciding someone is a problem -- or the Blackstaff himself deciding so -- and removing that problem.

So don't look at it like a cop who's allowed to kill when necessary in defense of the law and his own life.

Look at it like a shady-as-hell Man in Black who might just shoot you while you're going about your day to day business because the Senior Council decided you were a problem.

First, the Council itself has proven itself to go to incredible lengths to bring people to justice with the Wardens.  They aren't going to simply see you as a problem, and send the Blackstaff after you.  If they send the Blackstaff after you, you're an absolute nightmare, not some wizard who's irritated some council members.

Second, if the Council did send the Blackstaff after you, that was the process.  The military, and CIA do the exact same thing.  They don't hold a trial, or take a vote when killing a terrorist.  They locate the terrorist, and drop a bomb on them, case closed.  It has to be done, arresting and taking every terrorist to trial isn't realistic.  War is dirty, it always has been, and always will be.

Third, the Blackstaff was granted these powers by the Council.  That is also the process.  It's no different than the military telling a sniper to remove any threat he see's.  He's not going to radio back every target for confirmation to shoot.  His job is to see a target, make a judgement call, and take the shot.  No trial, no vote, it's the snipers call.

I think this conversation can be a good example of how the Council as a whole would respond.  Some people would be upset, and some would not.  I'm on the side of the people who wouldn't be upset.

[Mr. Death]

You're speaking with the outside knowledge we all have as readers. Knowledge that the average white council member is not going to have.

They don't know that the Blackstaff is "only" for super monster cases. Hell, we don't even know that -- we know that one case of Blackstaffing was entirely personal, people who went after his wife.

All the average white council member suspects is that there's someone out there who's allowed to kill at whim, and break the laws that they themselves have always been told were cosmically important and an instant death sentence if they were to break them for any reason.

Remember, the laws of magic aren't like laws of a nation or a state. Killing is illegal in the US, too, but if you're defending your own life or property, you could do it without even being arrested.

Killing for any reason at all with magic is a death sentence, with the extremely rare case of someone else literally putting their life on the line to keep you alive. And even then, it's assumed you're going to end up doing it again and killed.

So it's not like a sniper being given discretion to kill on specific missions. It's like a secret agent being given total discretion to torture, rape, maim and terrorize whoever he wants, if he decides it needs to be done.

[peregrine]

Third, the Blackstaff was granted these powers by the Council.  That is also the process.  It's no different than the military telling a sniper to remove any threat he see's.  He's not going to radio back every target for confirmation to shoot.  His job is to see a target, make a judgement call, and take the shot.  No trial, no vote, it's the snipers call.

The sniper doesn't get to browse the papers and watch the news, then gear up and go off to shoot whoever he thinks has it coming.  The Blackstaff does.

I think this conversation can be a good example of how the Council as a whole would respond.  Some people would be upset, and some would not. 

Which is my point.

[groinkick]

The sniper doesn't get to browse the papers and watch the news, then gear up and go off to shoot whoever he thinks has it coming.  The Blackstaff does.Which is my point.

It's the same thing.  A sniper will watch an area within his visual capability and take down a target.  That's no different than the Blackstaff watching for targets.  It's just the Blackstaff's scanning the globe rather than a couple mile radius. 


I still find it hard to believe the majority of the White Council is unaware of the Blackstaff.  It's been around for a very long time, and wizards instinctively are curious, and gather knowledge.  It's their nature.  They also seem to associate with the supernatural community, again sources of information on the Blackstaff.

I think it's more likely that Harry personally didn't know for a number of reasons.

1.  He's young for a wizard
2.  He has been shunned by the Council, and seen a a security risk
3.  Harry avoids the White Council

I think the 3rd reason is the biggest.  Harry has gone out of his way to avoid everything to do with the White Council and only exposes himself to them when he has no choice.   I think most wizard folk who are involved with the Council probably know of, or at least heard whispers of the Blackstaff.  I doubt that they are 100% unaware.  It's more likely that they suspect, but can't confirm.

[Mr. Death]

It's the same thing.  A sniper will watch an area within his visual capability and take down a target.  That's no different than the Blackstaff watching for targets.  It's just the Blackstaff's scanning the globe rather than a couple mile radius.

It really, really is not. A sniper is sent to places where there are known or suspected enemies, his orders coming from a chain of command and only allowed to shoot in that specific instance, in that specific space, at that specific time and often, specific people that are pre-approved.

They don't just turn a sniper toward a village and say, "Oh, just blast whoever you think you need to blast and we'll pick you up later." They put him in a place with orders like, "You're waiting for the Grand Generalissississimo. If you have a clean shot, take him out."

The Blackstaff has no orders. He has no real oversight. He has full discretion to do whatever he wants (remember, "What's the point of having a license to ignore the Senior Council if I don't use it?"). He is not sent after a target -- he decides who to kill, when to kill, how to kill, and can do so whenever he wants to.

The comparison you're proposing just does not work. It's like saying a kidnapper is the same as the cop because, hey, they both handcuff people and put them in a locked room.

[groinkick]

It really, really is not. A sniper is sent to places where there are known or suspected enemies, his orders coming from a chain of command and only allowed to shoot in that specific instance, in that specific space, at that specific time and often, specific people that are pre-approved.

They don't just turn a sniper toward a village and say, "Oh, just blast whoever you think you need to blast and we'll pick you up later." They put him in a place with orders like, "You're waiting for the Grand Generalissississimo. If you have a clean shot, take him out."

The Blackstaff has no orders. He has no real oversight. He has full discretion to do whatever he wants (remember, "What's the point of having a license to ignore the Senior Council if I don't use it?"). He is not sent after a target -- he decides who to kill, when to kill, how to kill, and can do so whenever he wants to.

The comparison you're proposing just does not work. It's like saying a kidnapper is the same as the cop because, hey, they both handcuff people and put them in a locked room.

Watch this and answer again.  Based on true events.  "It's your call"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o70G8oZBkHU

Think of who the Wardens go after, and how dangerous they are.  If the Blackstaff is involved it's even more dangerous... 

[Mr. Death]

That Sniper is deployed to a specific area, an active war zone, by a chain of command. He has orders, support and oversight, and if he shoots the wrong person, he's going to be held accountable. The Sniper did not just watch the news one day, decide to head over there, and shoot whoever he decided needed to be shot.

The Blackstaff, however, can and does. He has no oversight from the Senior Council. He can act without any orders at all, and do whatever he sees fit.

Do you really not see the difference here?

[groinkick]

That Sniper is deployed to a specific area, an active war zone, by a chain of command.

The Blackstaff was deployed by a chain of command.  The entire world is an active war zone when it comes to the power of an individual wizard.

He has orders, support and oversight, and if he shoots the wrong person, he's going to be held accountable. The Sniper did not just watch the news one day, decide to head over there, and shoot whoever he decided needed to be shot.

You think the Blackstaff isn't?  You think he can do anything he wants without consequence?  Archangel's don't have that power.  Mab doesn't have that power.  Why would you think that he has a mantle of power that gives him complete, and total free will to do what he wants without any kind of consequence or punishment?  Do you think the White Council would allow him to take out it's own members?  What if he started nuking cities around the globe?  Think they would stand by and say "Well he's the Blackstaff, can't interfere"

[Mr. Death]

The Blackstaff was deployed by a chain of command.

So we know the Senior Council ordered Ebenezer to kill Ortega? And the Senior Council ordered Ebenezer to unleash the Blackstaff on the people who messed with his wife?

Did the Senior Council order him to Chichen Itza?

The entire world is an active war zone when it comes to the power of an individual wizard.

What does this even mean?

I mean, seriously. "The entire world is an active war zone"? No, no it is not. Especially not during the times when the White Council isn't at war, which makes up 90% of the time we know Ebenezer's been the Blackstaff.

You think the Blackstaff isn't?  You think he can do anything he wants without consequence?

Well, yes? Because Ebenezer outright says he has the power to ignore the senior council, and we've never once seen or heard of anyone giving him orders that he had to follow, or even following up on the attacks he's made.

The idea that he gets orders he has to follow from a chain of command that has checks and balances to it simply is not presented in the books, and is in fact directly contradicted by Ebenezer himself.

Archangel's don't have that power.  Mab doesn't have that power.  Why would you think that he has a mantle of power that gives him complete, and total free will to do what he wants without any kind of consequence or punishment?

It's not a mantle of power, and it's not at all like either the Archangels or Mab. He's still a man. He has free will. You're mixing up two very different sets of rules and allowances here in a way that is simply not applicable.

Do you think the White Council would allow him to take out it's own members?

Both Maggie Sr. and Harry were and are members of the White Council. I.e., the White Council has outright told him to take out its own members.

[groinkick]

So we know the Senior Council ordered Ebenezer to kill Ortega? And the Senior Council ordered Ebenezer to unleash the Blackstaff on the people who messed with his wife?

Did the Senior Council order him to Chichen Itza?
What does this even mean?

The Blackstaff is a position created by, and recognized by the White Council, therefor it was deployed by a chain of command.  Eb didn't create it himself.

I mean, seriously. "The entire world is an active war zone"? No, no it is not. Especially not during the times when the White Council isn't at war, which makes up 90% of the time we know Ebenezer's been the Blackstaff.

A world in which a single wizard can perform a Dark Hallow is a war zone.  A single wizard can unleash unimaginable devastation, so yes the entire planet is in fact a war zone where anything can happen and requires someone who can strike at such a threat.  I think that is the most difficult thing I'm trying to convey here.  In the Dresdenverse it doesn't require a country to unleash nukes.  A single individual can unleash incredible devastation, on a global scale.  That's why the Blackstaff exists, for those individuals or groups.  I don't see anything that points to Eb abusing his power.

Well, yes? Because Ebenezer outright says he has the power to ignore the senior council, and we've never once seen or heard of anyone giving him orders that he had to follow, or even following up on the attacks he's made.

Who says the Blackstaff only reports to the White Council?  Also, do you think Eb told Harry EVERYTHING about his job?  Just because he can ignore the White Council doesn't mean he's not accountable to someone, or should I say something. 

It's not a mantle of power, and it's not at all like either the Archangels or Mab. He's still a man. He has free will. You're mixing up two very different sets of rules and allowances here in a way that is simply not applicable.

"The Blackstaff chooses the wizard" - Jim.  Sounds like a Mantle to me.

Both Maggie Sr. and Harry were and are members of the White Council. I.e., the White Council has outright told him to take out its own members.

Kind of contradicts your statement about a chain of command doesn't it?  I wasn't talking about the Council ordering him to take out it's members, I was talking about if for example Eb got tired of Langtry and decided to kill him.  Think the others would just stand by except it?

[Mr. Death]

The Blackstaff is a position created by, and recognized by the White Council, therefor it was deployed by a chain of command.  Eb didn't create it himself.

Created =/= deployed.

Deployed means a decision was made to send him somewhere to perform a task. We have no indication that the Senior Council regularly does this, or that it can enforce such orders, or a refusal of those orders.

General Ross helped create the Hulk in a lot of continuities, but you'd never say he deploys the Hulk or is in the chain of command of the Hulk.

A world in which a single wizard can perform a Dark Hallow is a war zone.

By that logic, a world in which a single person can detonate a nuke is a war zone.

That's not what a war zone means.

A single wizard can unleash unimaginable devastation, so yes the entire planet is in fact a war zone where anything can happen and requires someone who can strike at such a threat.

War zone: a place in which a war is being fought.

That someone can do something does not mean a war is being fought. You're using terms to mean things they simply do not mean.

I think that is the most difficult thing I'm trying to convey here.  In the Dresdenverse it doesn't require a country to unleash nukes.  A single individual can unleash incredible devastation, on a global scale.  That's why the Blackstaff exists, for those individuals or groups.  I don't see anything that points to Eb abusing his power.

Regardless of the scale, a war zone is a place where war is being actively waged. It is not the excruciatingly vague definition you're trying to use so you can compare things between which there is really no apt comparison.

Who says the Blackstaff only reports to the White Council?  Also, do you think Eb told Harry EVERYTHING about his job?  Just because he can ignore the White Council doesn't mean he's not accountable to someone, or should I say something.

Who else would he be accountable to? It's a position on the White Council chosen by the Senior Council. There's literally nobody else he could be expected to answer to.

"The Blackstaff chooses the wizard" - Jim.  Sounds like a Mantle to me.

The quote is, "Eb took up the Blackstaff in 1884-1885 somewhere in there.  The Blackstaff chooses his successor." I.e., the wizard who has the title of Blackstaff chooses who wields it next, not that the staff itself somehow does.

According to Jim, it's just an object with special abilities, without any sentience of its own, and all it really does is shield Ebenezer from the effects of black magic.

Kind of contradicts your statement about a chain of command doesn't it?

Ebenezer uses Harry as an example of him ignoring the will of the council. A chain of command means nothing when the person being "commanded" can just not follow it and faces no consequences. And Ebenezer didn't face any consequence for ignoring this order.

I wasn't talking about the Council ordering him to take out it's members, I was talking about if for example Eb got tired of Langtry and decided to kill him.  Think the others would just stand by except it?

Obviously they're not going to be okay with their secret, illegal assassin being turned against them. That's kind of the point.

You think White Council members will just stand by and accept that there's someone out there authorized to execute them on the spot, without even the show trial? Remember the uproar and outrage in Summer Knight when it was suggested they do that to Harry?

So yes, the Senior Council would have a problem with their secret assassin assassinating them. Just like the regular members would have a problem with that secret assassin murdering them.

That's exactly why people would have a problem with the Blackstaff.

[groinkick]

Created =/= deployed.

Deployed means a decision was made to send him somewhere to perform a task. We have no indication that the Senior Council regularly does this, or that it can enforce such orders, or a refusal of those orders.

General Ross helped create the Hulk in a lot of continuities, but you'd never say he deploys the Hulk or is in the chain of command of the Hulk.

Are you saying that the Senior Council does not support the Blackstaff, and wants him stopped?  If not then they believe he is fulfilling his position that they created.

By that logic, a world in which a single person can detonate a nuke is a war zone.

If the person is attempting to detonate a nuke then yes.  Can you point to an instance the Blackstaff attacked someone who was not a threat?

That's not what a war zone means.
War zone: a place in which a war is being fought.

That someone can do something does not mean a war is being fought. You're using terms to mean things they simply do not mean.
Regardless of the scale, a war zone is a place where war is being actively waged. It is not the excruciatingly vague definition you're trying to use so you can compare things between which there is really no apt comparison.

Have you not been reading the books?  Outsiders, vampires, Fallen, Dark Wizards, Old Gods, Fomor...  There are wars being fought.  You're looking at it from a human war perspective, and not from the Supernatural one. 

You think White Council members will just stand by and accept that there's someone out there authorized to execute them on the spot, without even the show trial? Remember the uproar and outrage in Summer Knight when it was suggested they do that to Harry?

So yes, the Senior Council would have a problem with their secret assassin assassinating them. Just like the regular members would have a problem with that secret assassin murdering them.

That's exactly why people would have a problem with the Blackstaff.

Can you point to an example of Council members being murdered by the Blackstaff without Senior Council approval?  You keep saying it like it's happened a lot.

[Mr. Death]

Are you saying that the Senior Council does not support the Blackstaff, and wants him stopped?  If not then they believe he is fulfilling his position that they created.

That's still not what deployed means.

In this context, deployed would mean they told Ebenezer, "Go to this specific place and do this specific thing." They apparently do not and cannot enforce it when they do give him an instruction.

If the person is attempting to detonate a nuke then yes.

Again: That is not what war zone means. You keep using the term in a way that does not match what it means.

Can you point to an instance the Blackstaff attacked someone who was not a threat?
Have you not been reading the books?  Outsiders, vampires, Fallen, Dark Wizards, Old Gods, Fomor...  There are wars being fought.  You're looking at it from a human war perspective, and not from the Supernatural one.

Please tell me where we have confirmation that the White Council was in an active state of war against the Fallen, when the Dark Wizards organized into a force that could war with the White Council, when they were at war with the Old Gods in the course of Ebenezer's time with the Blackstaff.

We don't know that any of what he's done was in the context of any war, but we do know that the Council has not faced war like the Red Court in a thousand years.

I.e., the acts Ebenezer committed as the Blackstaff happened in a time when the White Council explicitly was not at war.

In fact, we don't know the identities of anyone Ebenezer has killed as the Blackstaff. The only ones we have hints about are the people who messed with his wife (not a world-ending threat, a personal vendetta) and Ortega (again, a personal vendetta -- and do you think all his human servants deserved it?). We know he tried to hit Lord Raith (again, a personal vendetta -- over someone the Senior Council wanted dead anyway, so they wouldn't have ordered it).

The point is, nobody on the White Council knows who Ebenezer as the Blackstaff is killing or why. The nature of his job means that nobody is supposed to know.

Can you point to an example of Council members being murdered by the Blackstaff without Senior Council approval?  You keep saying it like it's happened a lot.

That's not the point.

The point is it could happen. That the existence of a secret assassin who's allowed to break all the rules that everyone else is under the threat of death to obey, and who the potential targets have no say about is terrifying. It doesn't matter what Ebenezer has actually done with the position; the point is he could extremely easily either kill whoever he wants, or kill whoever the Senior Council deems a problem, and both situations are and should be terrifying to the lower ranking members.

Seriously, based on his known hits and attempted hits, pissing off Ebenezer personally is the only real requirement for the Blackstaff to wipe you and everyone within about a mile of your current position off the face of the planet.

[dspringer1]

My two cents (or maybe 5 cents...)
 *  They do not need a law against stealing power from a wizard.   All wizards already are part of the White Council (or warlocks) and the white council already defends their own.   

*  They might need a law against stealing power from a magically weak mortal -- but I suspect the benefits are low.  Also, the white council protects mortals from wizards (and warlocks), so you will get into trouble either way.

*  The black staff is much less powerful than you people seem to think.  Or at least the power increase it grants is much less powerful.   At the end of the day, it gives the wielder the option to safely use some types of magic that they would otherwise not be able to use safely.   Unpleasant/disagreeable magic.   That gives the blackstaff some flexibility that other wizards do not have.  But it is not an increase in raw power.   In reality, I suspect the Blackstaff is usually not super skilled in these dark magics as they lack the in depth practice in those arts that they have in other magical schools.  So any magic is going to be relatively inefficient compared to what else they can cast.     Very useful yes -- but not a total game changer. 

*  It is certainly possible that the blackstaff gives a raw power boost, but that has not been confirmed by the books.   If it does, I suspect it does so with powers associated with death or ending (ie - powers associated with mother winter).  That is consistent with how Eb used the staff.   

*  The position of black staff also gives the wizard a lot of additional flexibility, primarily in "grey" areas that would otherwise be forbidden.   They can certainly go into the black with the blackstaff to protect them.  However, any obvious steps into the black would need to be justified to the senior council.   It is a license to break the rules to protect the council.  It is not a general exemption from the rules.    I would actually argue that the position of blackstaff gives more effective power to the wizard than possession of the black staff itself.  At least more power to a wizard that wishes to remain in good standing with the white council. 

[groinkick]

That's still not what deployed means.

In this context, deployed would mean they told Ebenezer, "Go to this specific place and do this specific thing." They apparently do not and cannot enforce it when they do give him an instruction.
Again: That is not what war zone means. You keep using the term in a way that does not match what it means.
Please tell me where we have confirmation that the White Council was in an active state of war against the Fallen, when the Dark Wizards organized into a force that could war with the White Council, when they were at war with the Old Gods in the course of Ebenezer's time with the Blackstaff.

We don't know that any of what he's done was in the context of any war, but we do know that the Council has not faced war like the Red Court in a thousand years.

I.e., the acts Ebenezer committed as the Blackstaff happened in a time when the White Council explicitly was not at war.

In fact, we don't know the identities of anyone Ebenezer has killed as the Blackstaff. The only ones we have hints about are the people who messed with his wife (not a world-ending threat, a personal vendetta) and Ortega (again, a personal vendetta -- and do you think all his human servants deserved it?). We know he tried to hit Lord Raith (again, a personal vendetta -- over someone the Senior Council wanted dead anyway, so they wouldn't have ordered it).

The point is, nobody on the White Council knows who Ebenezer as the Blackstaff is killing or why. The nature of his job means that nobody is supposed to know.
That's not the point.

The point is it could happen. That the existence of a secret assassin who's allowed to break all the rules that everyone else is under the threat of death to obey, and who the potential targets have no say about is terrifying. It doesn't matter what Ebenezer has actually done with the position; the point is he could extremely easily either kill whoever he wants, or kill whoever the Senior Council deems a problem, and both situations are and should be terrifying to the lower ranking members.

Seriously, based on his known hits and attempted hits, pissing off Ebenezer personally is the only real requirement for the Blackstaff to wipe you and everyone within about a mile of your current position off the face of the planet.

I will answer this stuff but before I do what are you talking about with regards to his wife?  I don't know anything about it.