Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?

[Griffyn612]

If so it's a secret that anyone with any kind of importance knows.  Kincaid knew it.  The Red Court knew.  I imagine the Mothers know.  The only ones who don't are probably just the lowly uniformed.

It's not common knowledge among the Council.  If the masses found out, there could be major backlash.  Harry really only forgave Eb because he was his mentor.  If anyone else on the Council had it, Harry would be paranoid as hell.

[LordDresden2]

Remember that a wizard's power isn't just a tool and a thing they can do. It's not like taking the driver's license away from a drunk, or banning a violent offender from purchasing a weapon.

Magic is part of who and what the wizard is. It's an intrinsic part of them, body, mind and soul. It's their identity, it is synonymous with their self.

This^^^.

I don't think you can steal a Wizard's magic, leaving the Wizard otherwise unhurt.  We know that some creatures can more-or-less eat part of the Wizard, and thus gain at least temporary access to at least some of his abilities, but this tears something fundamental out of the Wizard.  It might grow back, but it's not like taking a gun or a knife or a tool away from a person.  It's more like cutting off their hand.  Cutting off a hand is pretty harmful, even if the person can grow a new hand in time.

JB has said that Goodman Grey could devour Harry's essence like a naglooshi, but in so doing he would absorb so much of Harry that he would essentially rewrite himself into a copy of Harry.  You'd have a near-perfect physical, mental, and spiritual duplicate of Harry running around, but Harry would be dead or in a coma or something.

Sacrifice on the Stone Table isn't stealing a Wizard's power, it's killing the Wizard and devouring his essence.  Rather a different thing.

Now what probably is possible, though difficult, would be temporarily suppressing a Wizard's power so he can't use it.  That's almost surely doable, but it's also probably very difficult to do, hard to make stick, hard to make reliable, and a good deal more trouble than beheading or putting a bullet in him.

I mean suppose someone suppressed Harry's magic so he was essentially a normal man.  Would that make him harmless?  Well, he could still shoot you, still call in a favor from someone, still sic the Za-Guard on you, might still know some Names that would let him use ritual magic even without his own power, and at any given time he might regain his power.  If you were Harry's enemy, it would be far safer to kill him.

[LordDresden2]

It's not common knowledge among the Council.  If the masses found out, there could be major backlash.  Harry really only forgave Eb because he was his mentor.  If anyone else on the Council had it, Harry would be paranoid as hell.

Considering how many people outside the Council know, I find it hard to believe that most of the Council is totally in the dark.  They may not know who it is, but I'd bet most of them know that there is one.

[peregrine]

If most of the Council knew there was a Blackstaff like that, it would tear itself apart over the hypocrisy inherent in the position.

[groinkick]

If most of the Council knew there was a Blackstaff like that, it would tear itself apart over the hypocrisy inherent in the position.

Why?  I can't bug people's phones, lock people in jail, or hit their car with a missile but governments does it all the time.  You don't see American's overthrowing the government because it has powers they don't.

If I was a wizard I'd be glad there was someone who had the power to defend the Council from those who use the laws against it.  I'd recognize that there were wizards who violated the laws, giving them great power and making it almost impossible to stop them.  The Blackstaff levels the playing field.

It's also not being hypocritical.  Dark magic corrupts people, usually causing insanity.  So there are laws to prevent it.  The Blackstaff is a filter that prevents corruption, and insanity.  It's not the same.  Also just like a government using powers it's citizens don't have, the Blackstaff is under supervision and cannot simply go about doing these things unchecked which is different than a random wizard violating the rules because they feel like it.

[Snark Knight]

JB has said that Goodman Grey could devour Harry's essence like a naglooshi, but in so doing he would absorb so much of Harry that he would essentially rewrite himself into a copy of Harry.  You'd have a near-perfect physical, mental, and spiritual duplicate of Harry running around, but Harry would be dead or in a coma or something.

Yet the full-blood naagloshii don't seem to be subject to that risk. From what Morgan said, they just gain power from those they kill without it changing their fundamental nature (he initially thought Shagnasty was tracking him for a chance at eating him, rather than on contract to the Circle).

I wonder what that implies for the human skinwalkers who were taught the techniques of the originals? I'd guess they're probably at least as subject to being changed according to 'you are what you eat' as Grey himself would be, since as mortals their nature is more changeable than the real deal, but maybe Grey is uniquely vulnerable?

[groinkick]

It's not common knowledge among the Council.  If the masses found out, there could be major backlash.  Harry really only forgave Eb because he was his mentor.  If anyone else on the Council had it, Harry would be paranoid as hell.

Same could be said for the CIA, FBI, or NSA.  Do I trust them completely?  No.  Do I worry that they may abuse their power?  Absolutely.  Do I think that they should exist?  Yes, as long as their power is not absolute, and they are held accountable.  You can be sure that if Eb went around murdering people for the fun of it, the Council would remove him.

If I were a wizard I'd feel the same way about the "Blackstaff".  I think that the wizard community is probably more in the dark about the Blackstaff than the supernatural community.  I picture the Blackstaff as a type of boogieman to vampires, and evil doers.  They whisper about him, but not too loudly as they fear he may find out.  Because wizards aren't the ones on the receiving end of the Blackstaff they aren't really aware of him. 

[peregrine]

If I was a wizard I'd be glad there was someone who had the power to defend the Council from those who use the laws against it.  I'd recognize that there were wizards who violated the laws, giving them great power and making it almost impossible to stop them.  The Blackstaff levels the playing field.

They have them.  The Wardens.  The Blackstaff doesn't just stop wizards who violate the Laws, it breaks the laws.  And some of the dangers involved in doing so are inherent, not just some kind of dark magic taint.  Rewriting time or letting Outsiders in is not something the staff can undo the consequences of.

Plus, the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc... still have due process.  The Blackstaff is more like a covert organization that just goes around assassinating people.  Because, you know, that's what he does.  Remember the outcry over secret Eastern European prisons and warrantless wiretapping?  That's all the Blackstaff does.

[Mr. Death]

Don't look at the Blackstaff like a cop or an FBI agent. The Blackstaff is an assassin, a hitman, who makes problems for the White Council go away.

Without any kind of public process, no vote, no trial, nothing between the Council deciding someone is a problem -- or the Blackstaff himself deciding so -- and removing that problem.

So don't look at it like a cop who's allowed to kill when necessary in defense of the law and his own life.

Look at it like a shady-as-hell Man in Black who might just shoot you while you're going about your day to day business because the Senior Council decided you were a problem.

[Snark Knight]

So don't look at it like a cop who's allowed to kill when necessary in defense of the law and his own life.
Look at it like a shady-as-hell Man in Black who might just shoot you while you're going about your day to day business because the Senior Council decided you were a problem.

Given how prone the Council can be to factionalism, I don't think that would make it better. Every member who knows there is a Blackstaff but not who it is would be paranoid they might get whacked over political differences dressed up as 'for the good of the Council' at any moment.

[Mr. Death]

Given how prone the Council can be to factionalism, I don't think that would make it better. Every member who knows there is a Blackstaff but not who it is would be paranoid they might get whacked over political differences dressed up as 'for the good of the Council' at any moment.

Plausible deniability. There's a huge difference between, "There's a rumor that the Senior Council has a hitman," and "The Senior Council has a hitman, we know this for a fact, and there's nothing we can do about it."

[Snark Knight]

Plausible deniability. There's a huge difference between, "There's a rumor that the Senior Council has a hitman," and "The Senior Council has a hitman, we know this for a fact, and there's nothing we can do about it."

Not sure I buy that. Ebenezar's thinking was that even the rumour of the Black Council going public would send a bunch of wizards scurrying to defect to the side with momentum. Would wide circulation of rumours of a hitman be so readily discredited?

[LordDresden2]

They have them.  The Wardens. 

The Wardens are themselves (mostly) bound by the Laws.  That leaves them unable to cope with some problems.

The Blackstaff doesn't just stop wizards who violate the Laws, it breaks the laws.

Actually, it's not clear that it does from the Council/legal standpoint.  If the Laws don't apply to the Blackstaff, he can't break them.  As for the natural/cosmic consequences...

And some of the dangers involved in doing so are inherent, not just some kind of dark magic taint.  Rewriting time or letting Outsiders in is not something the staff can undo the consequences of.

We have no idea if that's true or not.

In practice, I suspect the Blackstaff rarely uses time magic or deals directly with Outsiders.  That's the Gatekeeper's bailiwick.  He might be legally authorized to do so, but I suspect his activity is more about the first 4, and necromancy.

Plus, the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc... still have due process.  The Blackstaff is more like a covert organization that just goes around assassinating people.  Because, you know, that's what he does.  Remember the outcry over secret Eastern European prisons and warrantless wiretapping?  That's all the Blackstaff does.

Pretty much.  That sort of thing is sometimes necessary, esp. in wartime.  Dangerous, but necessary.  It's not surprising that the Council has its black ops man.  It would be a huge surprise if they did not.

[LordDresden2]

Given how prone the Council can be to factionalism, I don't think that would make it better. Every member who knows there is a Blackstaff but not who it is would be paranoid they might get whacked over political differences dressed up as 'for the good of the Council' at any moment.

That's where one of the Iron Laws of Life (real or in the DV, it's true both places) kicks in:  Either you will discipline yourself, or someone else will discipline you instead.  Restrain yourself, or someone else will restrain you.

If the Blackstaff made a habit of abusing the power that way, it would tear the Council apart, as you note.  That's why one of the job requirements for the role would have to be discretion and self-control and judgement.

Also, the Blackstaff is just one man.  Keep that in mind.  If he gets too far out of hand, he can be dealt with by the Council, which outnumbers him thousands to one.  If necessary, any individual man can have an 'accident'.

The Blackstaff is a very powerful person, but he's not unchecked in practice, whatever the case might be on paper.

[unity1813]

Actually, it's not clear that it does from the Council/legal standpoint.  If the Laws don't apply to the Blackstaff, he can't break them. 

I would expect it's a kind of 007 license-to-kill situation. Yes, he can do it and not have the Wardens sicced on him by the Senior Council, but you can bet that if Arianna had indisputable evidence that Ebeneezer was behind Asteroid Dresden they'd disavow him and hang him out to dry. Choosing a wizard to be the Blackstaff is probably a matter of picking someone who isn't going to leave that evidence as much as it is finding someone both magically strong and morally incorruptible.

On-topic, recall that Harry threatened Binder with using his death-curse to take his power in Turn Coat:

I faced him with a chilly little smile. “You’ll spend the rest of your life unable to use magic, I think,” I said in a quiet, hopefully confident-sounding voice. “When I die, I take away your power. Forever. No more summoning. No more binding.” Binder’s expression began to flatten out into neutrality...He stared at me in silence for a second. “You can’t do that,” Binder said. “Take away my talent. That isn’t possible.”
 “I’m a wizard of the White Council, Binder. Not some stupid hack who spent his life using his gift to hurt people. Do you think we go around advertising everything we can do? If you knew half the things I’ve done that you think are impossible, you’d already be running.”

Death-curses seem to be able to do things that regular mortal magic can't, plus of course Harry could be bluffing. I wouldn't take it as gospel that it's possible or not, but Binder at least seems to think it isn't.