Are the Mothers immune to iron?

[Quantus]

I would suggest that the mothers are NOT limited to not being able to lie. 

Help me out with the multiple negatives: You're saying they have limits but Lying is not one of them?

Then again, why would they lie?  I'd bet they don't get many visitors in the first place, and really don't have much opportunity.  But there really isn't any reason to lie at that point.

Well, arguments could be made (and historically have, I think) that Humans have no actual Need to Lie.

Given that they have limits on what they can and cannot say even if it is 100% True, Im not sure yet how much those two sphere's of the Venn Diagram overlap. 

[Rasins]

Help me out with the multiple negatives: You're saying they have limits but Lying is not one of them?
Well, arguments could be made (and historically have, I think) that Humans have no actual Need to Lie.

Given that they have limits on what they can and cannot say even if it is 100% True, Im not sure yet how much those two sphere's of the Venn Diagram overlap.

Exactly

[Quantus]

Exactly

I do think the two restrictions spring from a common source, a mandate to respect Mortal Free Will, without having to actually protect Mortals in any specific way.   

[Rasins]

I do think the two restrictions spring from a common source, a mandate to respect Mortal Free Will, without having to actually protect Mortals in any specific way.   

And not lying to them?

[Quantus]

And not lying to them?

I see the Not Lying to them as the best "Letter of the Law" way to enforce a "Do Not infringe on their Free Will" Mandate, especially when combined with their innate Bargain/Obligation natures.  As long as they dont force themselves on a mortal (as opposed to bargaining with them) and they dont objectively Lie, then anything that follows could be laid at the feet of the Mortal in question, no?

[Rasins]

I see the Not Lying to them as the best "Letter of the Law" way to enforce a "Do Not infringe on their Free Will" Mandate, especially when combined with their innate Bargain/Obligation natures.  As long as they dont force themselves on a mortal (as opposed to bargaining with them) and they dont objectively Lie, then anything that follows could be laid at the feet of the Mortal in question, no?

Absolutely.  But that wouldn't be enough to require them to not lie.  You can lie and not abrogate one's free will, and you can tell only the absolute truth absolutely abrogate free will.

But I get what you are saying.

[Quantus]

Absolutely.  But that wouldn't be enough to require them to not lie.  You can lie and not abrogate one's free will, and you can tell only the absolute truth absolutely abrogate free will.

But I get what you are saying.

Per Uriel in GS, Im not entirely sure that is the case, at least not for Supernatural beings that are part of the Cosmic Defense Force (IE those with Cosmic Roles which I believe also come with Cosmic Rules).  Per that it sure sounds like Lying will always constitute an attack on Free Will, and I cant think of a counter-example.  Without Lying and also without being able to mess with a person that has not previously Agreed to something, I dont see any remaining avenues for abrogating a person's Free Will.

[Rasins]

Per Uriel in GS, Im not entirely sure that is the case, at least not for Supernatural beings that are part of the Cosmic Defense Force (IE those with Cosmic Roles which I believe also come with Cosmic Rules).  Per that it sure sounds like Lying will always constitute an attack on Free Will, and I cant think of a counter-example.  Without Lying and also without being able to mess with a person that has not previously Agreed to something, I dont see any remaining avenues for abrogating a person's Free Will.

The only ones we've actively seen the Chicagatory police involved with were breeches that the fallen made.  Specifically Harry's having been whispered the 7 words.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just not seeing the connection.

[Quantus]

The only ones we've actively seen the Chicagatory police involved with were breeches that the fallen made.  Specifically Harry's having been whispered the 7 words.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just not seeing the connection.

Well, in the case of the Chicagotory Police Force that's Not true, Id say. We know of exactly two cases they have been involved it, one was Harry and I suspect by Uriel's personal involvement was a special case.  The Other is the Raksasa, which as far as I know has no relation to Fallen.  One data point for and one against does not establish any particular pattern, just possibilities. 


But, How is any of that related to to topic of Lying vs Free Will? 

[Rasins]

Well, in the case of the Chicagotory Police Force that's Not true, Id say. We know of exactly two cases they have been involved it, one was Harry and I suspect by Uriel's personal involvement was a special case.  The Other is the Raksasa, which as far as I know has no relation to Fallen.  One data point for and one against does not establish any particular pattern, just possibilities. 


But, How is any of that related to to topic of Lying vs Free Will? 

Regarding the Raksasa - we don't know if the fallen were involved.  We do know that fallen were in the middle east (Not far from the Raksasa's stomping grounds) in Small Favor (I think it was SmF).  So, there could have been some rileing up there.

As to how they are connected.... isn't Capt Jack and crew part of the Cosmic Defense Force?

[Quantus]

Regarding the Raksasa - we don't know if the fallen were involved.  We do know that fallen were in the middle east (Not far from the Raksasa's stomping grounds) in Small Favor (I think it was SmF).  So, there could have been some rileing up there.

That was Skin Game, much later.  The Rakshasa has been mentioned twice; once as a thing the Council Handled (cristos distinguished himself then) and once as an offhand mention of a normal case that Capt Jack's office was handling.  Still doesnt line up chronologically, though some have specualted that time on that side of things might be wonky. 

Also, a Rakshasa is a hindu thing so a decent distance from Iran.  Unlike a bunch of other things in the Hindu side of things, it does not appear that the Rakshasa has the persian roots that typically connects it to iranian regions

As to how they are connected.... isn't Capt Jack and crew part of the Cosmic Defense Force?

OOOOH, I see where I lost you.  No, what I meant by the Cosmic Defence Force is all those super-powerful beings that seem to have been given specific roles in the defense of the Local Universe.  In my mind this includes Mab/Winter as the Gate Guardians, Vadderung as the Plan B Preparation force for the inevitable day that said defenses fail, and Hades as the Keeper of the Armory. 

While I would expect anyone being managed by Uriel to have a similarly critical and/or specific purpose, we have no idea what it might be so Im not really including them for now.  I also tend to view Uriel as operating on a separate/higher plane, one with more Multiversal awareness (because I think there is only the one Uriel across the multiverse). 

[jonas]

Quantus has already mentioned it, but IMO the teeth represent different roles she caries, and my theory is that the Iron Teeth roll isn't a farie one. 

There is precedent for this kind of thing in WoJ on Vadderung, which Quantus also mentioned.

I believe it's also possible that Mother Winter flat out isn't vulnerable to iron, but at a minimum, she has certain rolls or mantles she inhabits that aren't.

Which means at some point she collected up every horsemen's role... and the Loom of Lachesis.. Which I always thought ya know, Jim was rushed in the end of SK meant he included it there but decided it wasn't right to be there thematically for a different reason. Then literally between reading and writing this I had another horrifying thought. What if between SK and the next time Harry goes to the cottage it's actually been handed out to a new person who fits the bill? We directly saw one instance of MW handing out something because it was what was required.
Also that's a double negative isn't it?

[Quantus]

Which means at some point she collected up every horsemen's role... and the Loom of Lachesis.. Which I always thought ya know, Jim was rushed in the end of SK meant he included it there but decided it wasn't right to be there thematically for a different reason. Then literally between reading and writing this I had another horrifying thought.

Huh?  I see the loom connection, with her being one of the fates that operates it, but the Horsemen?  And what are you saying was rushed in (or out of) SK?

[jonas]

Huh?  I see the loom connection, with her being one of the fates that operates it, but the Horsemen?  And what are you saying was rushed in (or out of) SK?

She has the teeth of all 4 horsemen in SK on her mantle, one perfect set for famine, one rotted set for.... well, let me go check. I can't remember all of them offhand.
When he finished SK his story about that time is he was severely rushed getting the last bits in.(i'd have no idea where that is, it's more of a story so I don't think it ever made it as a woj, didn't seem directly important) I always assumed he had Lachesis Loom in the corner but later decided it was a hasty decision he later decided to leave out of future cottage visits.

[Quantus]

She has the teeth of all 4 horsemen in SK on her mantle, one perfect set for famine, one rotted set for.... well, let me go check. I can't remember all of them offhand.

I dont recall hearing that theory before, but you know I think I really like it!  Id been associated the metal teeth with her identity as Baba Yaga, who is also known as Old Iron Teeth, but I never had an explanation for the others

One looked simple enough, all white and even.   Death?

The next was rotted-looking, with chipped incisors and a broken molar.   Famine?

The next set had all pointed teeth, stained with bits of rusty brown and what looked like rotten bits of flesh stuck between them.   Pestilence?

The last was made out of some kind of silvery metal, shining like a sword.  War?

When he finished SK his story about that time is he was severely rushed getting the last bits in.(i'd have no idea where that is, it's more of a story so I don't think it ever made it as a woj, didn't seem directly important) I always assumed he had Lachesis Loom in the corner but later decided it was a hasty decision he later decided to leave out of future cottage visits.

Ah, I get it you are talking about the Loom and Spinning wheel mentioned in the corner of the Cottage in SK.  We've only had the two visits to the Cottage and the majority of the miscellany of the place was not described in the second visit.  But given that the second visit /did/ serve to confirm that the Mothers are in fact also the Morai (or part of them) which directly ties them to said Loom and Spinning wheel, I wouldnt go so far as to call it regret on Jims part or a reversal.  Just lean scene description?