Weapons that can kill Immortals?

[Quantus]

Back to the OP ....

We have an example of another weapon killing an immortal.

Morgan took one out using a Nuclear explosion when he lured a Nagloshii to the test ground during the testing back in the 1940s

Hurt it enough to knock it off his trail, but there's nothing to say it was able to get around the Immortal part and actually destroy the thing, he'd presumably be able to pull himself back together eventually, as described in CD.  Several folks think Shaggy was that same Naaglosshi that was nursing an old grudge.

But if any mundane weapon can do it on it's own (ie absent Halloween or a special killing ground or something) A nuke should be it, per WOJ they are some damn disruptive things. 

[Quantus]

     By definition, "mortal" refers to a thing which has life, and that life will eventually end. Some species of insects only live for weeks. Some species of trees live for thousands of years.

     By definition, "immortal" refers to a thing which has life, and that life will never end. An immortal being will not die and cannot be killed.

     Human perspective might cause some to think that a being with very long life might be 'immortal', but that is an error. A reader's idea of "immortal" in the DresdenVerse may be based on that perspective. There are myths and legends of 'gods' who have been killed, but they had to have been mortal in the first place.

That might be true in normal worlds, but TDF has 4-5 different levels of Mortality, and some creatures fall into multiple categories (Like Wampires). 

Mortal:
Vanilla Mortal - Not special, not a Wizard, Changeling etc.

Mortal - Have a Mortal Soul.  This include Humans, Wizards, Wampires, Sasquach/yeti/tree and mountain folk, Half-Rampires, Changeling that have not yet Chosen, etc.

Immortal:

Functional Immortal - No Natural Life expectancy, Anything that eventually stops aging.  Includes Wampires, Denarian Hosts, Rampires, most (all?) Fae, and most (all?) NN Spirits. 

Mantled Immortals - Those creatures that, by possession of an Immortal Mantle, cannot be killed no matter how much damage they take, unless specific circumstances are met (IE conjuctions).

Cosmic Beings* - Truely Immortal Things that are unique (not a Mantle) which will not move to another host, but also cannot be truely Killed/ended.  Suspected examples are Angels, Walkers, and the Sleepers. 


*Cosmic beings may all have something akin to Mantles (maybe Grace) that

[groinkick]

     By definition, "mortal" refers to a thing which has life, and that life will eventually end. Some species of insects only live for weeks. Some species of trees live for thousands of years.

     By definition, "immortal" refers to a thing which has life, and that life will never end. An immortal being will not die and cannot be killed.

     Human perspective might cause some to think that a being with very long life might be 'immortal', but that is an error. A reader's idea of "immortal" in the DresdenVerse may be based on that perspective. There are myths and legends of 'gods' who have been killed, but they had to have been mortal in the first place.

In the Dresdenverse there are immortals, and Immortals.  They don't fall under the dictionary definition.  An immortal is someone like a vampire who doesn't die easily, and don't appear to age.  Immortals are the real deal.  They either cannot die, or only under very special circumstances like Halloween.

My guess is that immortal's are mostly alive (connected to the mortal realm), but have a connection the the Nevernever or spirit realm, while Immortals are even further away from the mortal plane (Earth). 

[kazimmoinuddin]

It is said immortals feed upon each other it think, so they would count as living weapons.

[peregrine]

Immortals feed upon each other during special times, like Halloween, when they're more mutable.  One can't necessarily do it any time they want.

[jonas]

Yup!  Thanks Wyltok.

Point is, the Blackstaff is *something else* when it comes to power, unlike the Athame.

It's funny because the three swords are generally thought to have a guardian/grace attached to it. One wonders about similar powered beings being connected to the other two. Something I'd not thought of at all on the noose before.

[Rasins]

I would say that a good definition of immortal in the DV would be someone who would not expect to "die of natural causes."

Meaning that they would keep on going, barring any kind of disease or trauma.  Humans can expect to die of natural causes if they don't succumb to some kind of disease or trauma.

Beings like Wampires WON'T die of natural causes, making them effectively immortal, unless something comes along and KILLS them.

Other immortals require very special circumstances, but still fall under the ageis of immortal, but for those circumstances.

Then there are the truly Immortal.  I don't know that we've met any of them yet.  Even Uriel can be killed under the right circumstances.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I think the stone table can help kill immortals, but in a way allow them to be reborn.

[LordDresden2]

Hurt it enough to knock it off his trail, but there's nothing to say it was able to get around the Immortal part and actually destroy the thing, he'd presumably be able to pull himself back together eventually, as described in CD.  Several folks think Shaggy was that same Naaglosshi that was nursing an old grudge.

I've seen that theory (that Shagnasty was Morgan's creature), but to my knowledge there's been no WoJ supporting it and I've seen no evidence at all of it in the texts.

[Rasins]

I've seen that theory (that Shagnasty was Morgan's creature), but to my knowledge there's been no WoJ supporting it and I've seen no evidence at all of it in the texts.

I can take it or leave it.  It doesn't add nor detract from the story for it to have been the same one or not.

[Quantus]

I've seen that theory (that Shagnasty was Morgan's creature), but to my knowledge there's been no WoJ supporting it and I've seen no evidence at all of it in the texts.

Oh, agreed.  It's not confirmed in anything I know of, and it's barely hinted in the books, though it also doesnt contradict anything I know of.  The closest thing that Id call support of this theory is the WOJ on Shagnasty's motivations, which were that he was hired but that things like him to get paid in money, they operate in a world of Favors and Grudges.

I do think the logic of the argument stands up fairly well, in that that Shaggy a) was "hired", doesnt care about money but very much cares about grudges, and b) should need some extreme motivation to chase Morgan given the innate weakening he faces by leaving his native lands. 

[jonas]

Something interesting I came across on Skinwalkers is in order for a human to become one they, as a 'witch' already, have to murder a member of their own family. Considering what the skinwalkers are, where they came from, and how many of them are locked away in DR, I think the guy in PG had very good reasons for his insanity of 'being a god'. Connections for N, black magic taint and prisoners looking for a mirror/outlet?

[Quantus]

Something interesting I came across on Skinwalkers is in order for a human to become one they, as a 'witch' already, have to murder a member of their own family. Considering what the skinwalkers are, where they came from, and how many of them are locked away in DR, I think the guy in PG had very good reasons for his insanity of 'being a god'. Connections for N, black magic taint and prisoners looking for a mirror/outlet?

I see the similarities.  just to check, your not saying that kid in PG was on his way to becoming a (trained style) Naagloshii, no?  Naagloshii are specific and limited to the American Southwest, they loose power the longer they are away from it; the kid in PG was from Korea iirc, so I dont think that would be the Corrutpion tradition he was working with.  Though I would not be at all surprised if there wasnt an Eastern equivalent, either a similar creature with a training/corrution mechanism or the actual Same entity that simply has a different name in eastern Languages. 

[jonas]

I see the similarities.  just to check, your not saying that kid in PG was on his way to becoming a (trained style) Naagloshii, no?  Naagloshii are specific and limited to the American Southwest, they loose power the longer they are away from it; the kid in PG was from Korea iirc, so I dont think that would be the Corrutpion tradition he was working with.  Though I would not be at all surprised if there wasnt an Eastern equivalent, either a similar creature with a training/corrution mechanism or the actual Same entity that simply has a different name in eastern Languages.

Oh yea, skinwalker myths abound and not all of them are Am-southwest. For simplicities sake I'd say all such beings are the same beings under different names and legends, All with their own area's.
I think the biggest difference between the kid and any other human to Naagloshi probably WAS the training. Naagloshi, the originals are semidivine beings limited to their own 'holy' land. can't recall specifically why they couldn't leave their lands. Why in the thematic of the DF do they lose said power though? I think they can only keep full power on their own land because It's their sanctum, they are bonded to the land there and leaving it subjects them to Rent they can't pay. So it comes out of their personal self, it might even be that the land rejects them(Mother says you have no place here, Father says, ect) and cuts off their power supply or causes it's flow to dwindle just like a sanctum would increase the flow. So no magical intake on a creature that seemingly runs on magic. Not sure if this would apply to human to Naagloshi though, no divinity, so?
Bottom line, I think by being like the skinwalkers they invite them in, even those whom may be trapped elsewhere with "the least opportunity to express themselves".

[Quantus]

Oh yea, skinwalker myths abound and not all of them are Am-southwest. For simplicities sake I'd say all such beings are the same beings under different names and legends, All with their own area's.

Id be careful on that.  "Skinwalker" is a term that is widely used but also very diverse in its application.  Just because another myth gets translated to "Skinwalker" wouldnt be enough on it's own to equate them with Naagloshii in my book.  Many Skinwalker usages Ive seen, for example, are basically just (usually evil) shapeshifters.  The Dresden TV show had a "Skinwalker" that was mostly just a shapeshifter with a Buffalo Bill fetish. 

The elements Id look for to equate with a Naagloshii are shapeshifting and/or innate Magic, the whole Power Via Fear thing, the "Intellectus for Torture" Ability, the presence of both Native/divine versions and the Trained Ex-Human ones, and also the part where they are Anchored to a particular geographic location and loose power if they leave.