What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[Quantus]

Is it?  Or is it Kris Kringle?

Common Popular belief has them as both, but are they?  And is that specific Mantle Saint Nicholas?

Yup, it was pretty direct, and I asked the question specifically with this whole Saint question in mind.  Should have followed up and asked for a specific definition.  He listed several different Names/Mantles in comparison to his Santa and Vadderung Mantles. 

2015 AMA
Vadderung is Santa Claus, is he also St Nicholas?
And Father Christmas and Sinterklaas and a variety of others. But in our modern era, a lot of people wear multiple hats on the job.

[jonas]

someone who either in partiality through life or directly of life, sacrifices of themselves for the greater good. Susan probably got a nice sainthood package.

[Mira]

someone who either in partiality through life or directly of life, sacrifices of themselves for the greater good. Susan probably got a nice sainthood package.

I agree, it is also possible that someone who wasn't a good person has a change of heart at the end and sacrifices for the greater good could be named a saint.

[jonas]

I agree, it is also possible that someone who wasn't a good person has a change of heart at the end and sacrifices for the greater good could be named a saint.

Jonas approves this message.

[Rasins]

I agree, it is also possible that someone who wasn't a good person has a change of heart at the end and sacrifices for the greater good could be named a saint.

I'm pulling for Maggie Sr for this.

Yup, it was pretty direct, and I asked the question specifically with this whole Saint question in mind.  Should have followed up and asked for a specific definition.  He listed several different Names/Mantles in comparison to his Santa and Vadderung Mantles. 

2015 AMA
Vadderung is Santa Claus, is he also St Nicholas?
And Father Christmas and Sinterklaas and a variety of others. But in our modern era, a lot of people wear multiple hats on the job.

The way that quote is worded, each of those could have been separate people/Mantles.

[groinkick]

I'm pulling for Maggie Sr for this.


The way that quote is worded, each of those could have been separate people/Mantles.

Not how I read it.  He was saying that Odin has all those Mantles, and then added that in these days people wear many hats.  It's because in the past there were many people with Mantles, and over time those Mantles were consolidated into fewer people, but with more power.

[Rasins]

Not how I read it.  He was saying that Odin has all those Mantles, and then added that in these days people wear many hats.  It's because in the past there were many people with Mantles, and over time those Mantles were consolidated into fewer people, but with more power.

Oh, I agree that Odin has them all, but that suggests that they were separate at one time.

[Quantus]

The way that quote is worded, each of those could have been separate people/Mantles.

Not how I read it.  He was saying that Odin has all those Mantles, and then added that in these days people wear many hats.  It's because in the past there were many people with Mantles, and over time those Mantles were consolidated into fewer people, but with more power.

Im not sure what difference you guys are getting at, unless its a question of whether the guy Harry has met is the Original of each/all of those, versus being originally only one (or none) of them and has collected all those the Mantles more recently?

I definitely thing he's saying that a single guy possesses all those Names/Mantles currently.  I dont know whether he can combine them, or has to keep them separate as he clearly is doing with the Vadderung/Kringle mantles we've seen in action (ie. Fae one minute, working in a Steel Office the next).

Oh, I agree that Odin has them all, but that suggests that they were separate at one time.

EDIT: Ah, gotcha.  I tend to think it's a case by case thing. Some of those I fully expect to have separate origins, the Saint one in particular being something Id expect to need it's own history. But others are, historically, amalgamations that grew out of other myths and/or Mantles.  I mean: we have Kringle, Father Christmas, and Sinterklaas, all of which are historically believed to be malagamation myths that (usually) grew out of pre-existing Legends of Odin (usually as the Wanderer).  Since Odin has historically had dozens of Names and is one step shy of a full Trickster God, I could easily imagine him spending enough time and/or doing enough Significant (capital S) things that one of his "fake" Names would gain Power all it's own. 

[Rasins]

Im not sure what difference you guys are getting at, unless its a question of whether the guy Harry has met is the Original of each/all of those, versus being originally only one (or none) of them and has collected all those the Mantles more recently?

I definitely thing he's saying that a single guy possesses all those Names/Mantles currently.  I dont know whether he can combine them, or has to keep them separate as he clearly is doing with the Vadderung/Kringle mantles we've seen in action (ie. Fae one minute, working in a Steel Office the next).
EDIT: Ah, gotcha.  I tend to think it's a case by case thing. Some of those I fully expect to have separate origins, the Saint one in particular being something Id expect to need it's own history. But others are, historically, amalgamations that grew out of other myths and/or Mantles.  I mean: we have Kringle, Father Christmas, and Sinterklaas, all of which are historically believed to be malagamation myths that (usually) grew out of pre-existing Legends of Odin (usually as the Wanderer).  Since Odin has historically had dozens of Names and is one step shy of a full Trickster God, I could easily imagine him spending enough time and/or doing enough Significant (capital S) things that one of his "fake" Names would gain Power all it's own. 

This could give credence to the theory that BELIEF plays a part in the creation of a Mantle.  Assuming Saint Nicholas was a Mantle.

[wyltok]

This could give credence to the theory that BELIEF plays a part in the creation of a Mantle.  Assuming Saint Nicholas was a Mantle.

Day One Spoilers:

(click to show/hide)

"Look, they were just making a toy, but they gave it to kids. Kids believing in things has freaking power. It either created the real {baka baku} or it gave access to something similar from the Nevernever that used that belief to create a place for itself in reality."

[Rasins]

That's a bit different, but along the same lines.  Shows the importance of belief in the DV.

[Quantus]

Ive always seen it as there being a quantitative difference at play.  Belief (distinct in this usage from Faith) has an associated Power/Energy; the fact that both Shrouds had Power is proof of that.  But the fact that they have wildly different power levels is also worth nothing.  It's not anywhere near as...absolute(?) as it is in other settings where, for example, the Greek/Roman split of the Olympian Gods would make actual new beings, or bifurcate the existing ones, and nothing anywhere close to American Gods style where even the implication of being in A New World is enough to spawn whole new entities. 

Look at this as a Counter example:  Kids believing in things "has freaking Power", but Santa Clause is at least a century behind the Coca-Cola image that all those kids are believing in.  Similarly Hades isnt much bothered by accuracy or absence of Worship.

[jonas]

That might be the distinctive quality there though. Are they effected more by Belief and worship or disbelief that they are simply fictional? I'd wager the former effects them much more than the later. As one has a greater amount of, well faith if nothing else, applied to it.
Commercialized as santa is we turn around and tell our kids he's fake and nobody has any strong emotional ties to these new age Hades stories. He's not scary or awe inspiring or any other evocative emotion that might actually have some sort of magical juice tied to it. He's just a tropey bad guy who usually facilitates releasing real monsters. Bet the Kraken is getting bigger these days lol.

[Quantus]

That might be the distinctive quality there though. Are they effected more by Belief and worship or disbelief that they are simply fictional? I'd wager the former effects them much more than the later. As one has a greater amount of, well faith if nothing else, applied to it.
Commercialized as santa is we turn around and tell our kids he's fake and nobody has any strong emotional ties to these new age Hades stories. He's not scary or awe inspiring or any other evocative emotion that might actually have some sort of magical juice tied to it. He's just a tropey bad guy who usually facilitates releasing real monsters. Bet the Kraken is getting bigger these days lol.

I think both of those would play a role, though I dont know which carries more weight.  But I'd argue that the the Worship and Belief of a vast swath of the Children on the planet (since far more children are raised believing in Santa than raised with a real belief in Christianity) would be at least as powerful, and would not be lessened by the fact that most of those Children will eventually be (incorrectly) told that Santa doesnt exists.  Any individual believers Loss of Faith would not impact the Power as a whole, unless it became a full-on Trend that reduced the total. 

[jonas]

I think both of those would play a role, though I dont know which carries more weight.  But I'd argue that the the Worship and Belief of a vast swath of the Children on the planet (since far more children are raised believing in Santa than raised with a real belief in Christianity) would be at least as powerful, and would not be lessened by the fact that most of those Children will eventually be (incorrectly) told that Santa doesnt exists.  Any individual believers Loss of Faith would not impact the Power as a whole, unless it became a full-on Trend that reduced the total.

That's very optimistic of you lol. I suppose I'm applying a polar express mentality to it. Belief fades, it gets tarnished, heck people go out of their way to destroy it betimes. Though wether or not that merely cuts off future intake or withers away what was added is a whole nother subject. It might be that santa is the most believed being on the planet, in short periods of time by a huge amount of the populace giving a gob of true belief as only children can.