What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[Rasins]

I think the thing we are forgetting here is that Saints are labeled Saint AFTER they have died.

Having the power to lead a mob against BCV Elders is an indication that someone could be a Saint, but I still think that being part of the organization (the Church) that "owns" the copyright to the term Saint is a pretty big deal when you are trying to apply it to other people.

By definition, only a follower of TWG or TWC can be a saint.

This doesn't mean that others cannot throw around saint-like powers.

I know I'm kind of wrapped around the axel with this definition, but I think it's important.

[Quantus]

I think the thing we are forgetting here is that Saints are labeled Saint AFTER they have died.

I dont think that has bearing anymore; we're agreed that in the they have to be Alive yes?  Unless we're considering the definition of Saint to require the you "Die And Get Better" like Harry?

but I still think that being part of the organization (the Church) that "owns" the copyright to the term Saint is a pretty big deal when you are trying to apply it to other people.

This feels like a logical loop.  Your saying it would be a big deal because TWG "owns" the term Saint, but that assumed ownership would exist if you already Consider TWG to be a Big Deal.  Historically/RL the term Saint is not at all restricted to Christianity; that's just the most common (and arguably most formal) use of the term that drove it's globalization. 

[wyltok]

I think the thing we are forgetting here is that Saints are labeled Saint AFTER they have died.

Having the power to lead a mob against BCV Elders is an indication that someone could be a Saint, but I still think that being part of the organization (the Church) that "owns" the copyright to the term Saint is a pretty big deal when you are trying to apply it to other people.

By definition, only a follower of TWG or TWC can be a saint.

This doesn't mean that others cannot throw around saint-like powers.

I know I'm kind of wrapped around the axel with this definition, but I think it's important.

I am not forgetting it, I am intentionally ignoring it. In this particular topic, my interest is in how someone can obtain the power to lead a mob against an Elder of the BCV (~30 of them can take on Mab and at least tie, if not win) and hope to win. There are known avenues to power (being a wizard or a Knight, for example) that can handle this. What did Jim mean when he said a "saint" could also pull it off? If we assume he didn't mean a dead person as a leader (a reasonable assumption in my mind), then we have to assume Jim is working from a definition of the term "saint" that deviates from what's traditionally accepted. Therefore, we are trying to define the bounds of what seems reasonable for this new definition of saint.

Going back to the old definition of saint, while a good starting point, does not appear reasonable to me as a final destination, if we are already throwing out one of the main requirements (being dead), what other requirements can we also throw out? Does it need to be a follower of TWG, or can there be saints from other religions? Is a pious life (however that is defined by each religion) necessary to be a Saint, or just calling upon a Higher Power in a time of need? Is Faith required? These are all interesting questions to ponder precisely because we know that the traditional definition of sainthood does not apply.

[Mira]

Going back to the old definition of saint, while a good starting point, does not appear reasonable to me as a final destination, if we are already throwing out one of the main requirements (being dead), what other requirements can we also throw out? Does it need to be a follower of TWG, or can there be saints from other religions? Is a pious life (however that is defined by each religion) necessary to be a Saint, or just calling upon a Higher Power in a time of need? Is Faith required? These are all interesting questions to ponder precisely because we know that the traditional definition of sainthood does not apply.

And if we look at the history of actual saints, they may not fit any of the above but because of one act make the big leagues.

[groinkick]

If Chauncy was telling the truth about the werewolf curse, I wonder why a Saint was cast it, and why TWG would allow it.

[Mira]

If Chauncy was telling the truth about the werewolf curse, I wonder why a Saint was cast it, and why TWG would allow it.

  It must have been a gave offense indeed, if the sin of the father is extended to the innocent descendants of his family..

[Quantus]

  It must have been a gave offense indeed, if the sin of the father is extended to the innocent descendants of his family..

That's assuming it was a punishment, and not a willing sacrifice or Long-term "good" or some such.  Which so far TWG always seems to require, if not always full Informed Consent. 

[Rasins]

I dont think that has bearing anymore; we're agreed that in the they have to be Alive yes?  Unless we're considering the definition of Saint to require the you "Die And Get Better" like Harry?

This feels like a logical loop.  Your saying it would be a big deal because TWG "owns" the term Saint, but that assumed ownership would exist if you already Consider TWG to be a Big Deal.  Historically/RL the term Saint is not at all restricted to Christianity; that's just the most common (and arguably most formal) use of the term that drove it's globalization. 

Not at all.  That's why there are saints and Saints.

Per biblical source (Paul I believe, but haven't looked it up yet), all followers of TWC are saints.  Be they alive or in their graves, they are saints.  Saints are those who have passed away, but are recognized as having attained paradise.

The argument that it would require someone to be a saint to lead a mob against an elder of the Black Court Vamps is a fallacy as well.

And you have to realize that while they don't get the press, there were saints who led mobs against great evil (in the form of a BCV elder or some other thing) that weren't successful.  That doesn't make them any less of a saint.  It just means that they weren't as successful as other saints.  And the others who were successful are the ones who got the better press and often were canonized and recognized as a Saint.

I mean look at all the martyrs who died unsuccessfully fighting against an evil, but are recognized as Saints.

[Mira]

That's assuming it was a punishment, and not a willing sacrifice or Long-term "good" or some such.  Which so far TWG always seems to require, if not always full Informed Consent.

But if it was  a willing sacrifice, then Finn would be a saint, wouldn't he?  Or at least a martyr..  Also wouldn't he have considered it a blessing instead of a curse?  Not sure what long time good could come from a Loop randomly killing innocents every full moon until the end of time.  I may be wrong but I think cursing someone or putting a curse on someone is the same as damning them..

[Rasins]

But if it was  a willing sacrifice, then Finn would be a saint, wouldn't he?  Or at least a martyr..  Also wouldn't he have considered it a blessing instead of a curse?  Not sure what long time good could come from a Loop randomly killing innocents every full moon until the end of time.  I may be wrong but I think cursing someone or putting a curse on someone is the same as damning them..

Looked at from TWG's perspective, those "innocents" are just being sent back home (to heaven).  Being a soul, having a body, or being a spiritual being having a physical experience, dying isn't a bad thing.  So from that perspective it's not a curse.

And causing someone to become a killing machine does not necessarily damn them.  If it's against their will, then it's not their fault and thus they will not be judged murderers.

[Ulfgeir]

Looked at from TWG's perspective, those "innocents" are just being sent back home (to heaven). 

I would hope that the Dresden file TWG were benevolent. if we look at real world, then well he is basically Cthulhu.

/Ulfgeir

[Rasins]

I would hope that the Dresden file TWG were benevolent. if we look at real world, then well he is basically Cthulhu.

/Ulfgeir

LOL ... now THAT conversation could get to be a TT for sure.

[toodeep]

We have seen where an individual's soul is linked with a creature of the NN.  White court vampire (to their hunger) and red court vampire (to the hunter spirit) are the most obviously known, but a similar argument could be made for Harry's soul now being linked to Winter (though this would be highly arguable considering that there was no sign of a connection to his soul while he was on "walkabout" in ghost story), or Kincaid's being linked to.... whatever he is descended from.

This relationship allows the mortal to pull power from the NN creature to which he/she is linked and in return the NN creature gets to at least influence the mortal, and possibly more importantly, gets something with the potential of free will to advance its agenda. 

I think if a mortal links his soul to an angel in this manner, he becomes a Saint.  It gives him access to divine power and gives the angel a way to "get around the rules" restricting angelic interference and allows the mortal to use some divine power with free will.  The problem being, of course, just like with having any other creatures bound to your soul, this is tough on the mortal.  You always have an angel there driving you to do the right thing, possibly beyond your ability to actually accomplish, and possibly with little acceptance of your mortal frailties.  Easy to see why Saints might burn out fast and go into unwinnable battles...  On the reverse side, it is hard on the Angel, so they are chary to do it.  After all, their power becomes linked to someone with free will, and if that person loses their cool in anger and uses it to make a nasty curse that hurts innocent descendants.... then the angel feels responsible for that too. 

So I think that is what a Saint is, and association between a mortal and a creature of the NN (an angel) where the angel provides power and the human provides free will.  It is dangerous (long term) for the mortal and possibly dangerous (at least spiritually/ethically) for the angel, so it doesn't happen a often - and only with someone who has earned the trust of an angel.  So I really do think we could see someone become a saint in the future of the Dresden files.

[Quantus]

Not at all.  That's why there are saints and Saints.

As Ive said so many times in this thread, I will fight this proposed nomenclature to my dying breath.   
()

Per biblical source (Paul I believe, but haven't looked it up yet), all followers of TWC are saints.  Be they alive or in their graves, they are saints.  Saints are those who have passed away, but are recognized as having attained paradise.

Sure, that is one of the many contradictory definition of Saint out there in the Real World.  Which is why we are trying to keep this conversation restricted to the In-Setting examples and data we have. 

The argument that it would require someone to be a saint to lead a mob against an elder of the Black Court Vamps is a fallacy as well.

And you have to realize that while they don't get the press, there were saints who led mobs against great evil (in the form of a BCV elder or some other thing) that weren't successful.  That doesn't make them any less of a saint.  It just means that they weren't as successful as other saints.  And the others who were successful are the ones who got the better press and often were canonized and recognized as a Saint.

Um, what? We're talking about Saints. Sure there are other things out there with Power that might lead such a fight, the OWJ in question listed quite a few. But we're focusing on Saints, specifically the only Dresden Files example we have.  You dont need to be a Saint to lead such as fight, but as far as we have any Data anyone who is a Saint should be able to lead such a fight. 

I mean look at all the martyrs who died unsuccessfully fighting against an evil, but are recognized as Saints.

Per catholic use, originally there was no distinction between Saint and Martyr, the ONLY saints were those that were Martyred.  Though yes this is certainly different than the usage in the New Testament.  But since we know that DF Saints are living things, that cannot be a part of it in the story. 

But if it was  a willing sacrifice, then Finn would be a saint, wouldn't he?  Or at least a martyr..  Also wouldn't he have considered it a blessing instead of a curse?  Not sure what long time good could come from a Loop randomly killing innocents every full moon until the end of time.  I may be wrong but I think cursing someone or putting a curse on someone is the same as damning them..

Not Finn, though perhaps the originating Ancestor; descendants are Bound by their ancestor's Choices to some degree (you can sell a baby apparently, Firstborn, etc) but the later generatiosn dont seem to get any credit for the actions of their ancestors (they can inherit responsibility, but they dont get to just inherit Faith, I wouldnt think.  Wouldnt surprise me if the originating Ancestor actually /was/ the Saint in question, truthfully. 

As far as Why: My theory is that Odin needed to craft a weaponized Mantle that would be powerful enough to Kill him come the prophesied Ragnarok; he needed to create the Fenrir Wolf, because only that will allow him to release his full God-level Deathcurse.  He didnt want to deal with the concentrated Mass destruction of a Darkhallow ritual, so instead he created a Curse that would spread the killing harvest out over the course of generations and centuries (as WOJ implied that the Erlking did it, Im thinking one hunt at a time). 



Random Note: We do have WOJ confirmation that one of Vadderung's Mantles is Saint Nicholas.

[Rasins]

Random Note: We do have WOJ confirmation that one of Vadderung's Mantles is Saint Nicholas.

Is it?  Or is it Kris Kringle?

Common Popular belief has them as both, but are they?  And is that specific Mantle Saint Nicholas?