What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[Mira]

In case you missed my point earlier, the "something more" his soul is would be his very "Being." Himself.  Who and What he is.  Which he worded as "I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---"  His power came from him.  Special yes.  Saintly no. 

"Everything he believed," is the key word here..   Faith, belief,  that is what separates Harry from the other wizards he knows. 

[Quantus]

"Everything he believed," is the key word here..   Faith, belief,  that is what separates Harry from the other wizards he knows.

I kind of feel like there isnt really much support for Either of those assertions.  Harry is not, by any rational definition Ive heard, a Man of Faith; he's shown instances of faith, but it is by no means a defining trait of his.  And we have Zero information on what sort of Faith the other wizards have, aside from Harry repeated mentions most do not actively reject all the religious trapping of Magic the way he does; otherwise LTW is the closest thing to a data point we have, and he definitely involves his deities more (if not full Blessing Way clergy). 

[Serack]

"Everything he believed," is the key word here..   Faith, belief,  that is what separates Harry from the other wizards he knows.

Belief being a foundation of a wizard's magic is universal, not special to Harry.  This was established in the second chapter of the series, and has been emphasized multiple times since. 

"What makes you say that Harry?"
"The way magic works.  Whenever you do something with it, it comes from inside you.  Wizards have to focus on what they're trying to do, visualize it, believe in it, to make it work.  You can't make something happen that isn't part of you, inside.

"Everything I was" included much more than his beliefs (he gave a whole list!), and any faith he has that is relevant to sainthood (what this topic is about) is a very limited portion of "Everything he believed."  Focusing on faith and belief as what makes the spell in the CD passage special is WAY overly narrow. 

I fear the point of our conversation has drifted, so I want to check back on that.  Are you advocating for Harry's status as a Saint based off of your interpretation of this passage?  Please make sure I understand what conclusion you advocating.  I feel like I'm quibbling over details and the foundational conclusion has drifted while I was looking the other direction. 

[Mira]

Belief being a foundation of a wizard's magic is universal, not special to Harry.  This was established in the second chapter of the series, and has been emphasized multiple times since. 


"Everything I was" included much more than his beliefs (he gave a whole list!), and any faith he has that is relevant to sainthood (what this topic is about) is a very limited portion of "Everything he believed."  Focusing on faith and belief as what makes the spell in the CD passage special is WAY overly narrow. 

I fear the point of our conversation has drifted, so I want to check back on that.  Are you advocating for Harry's status as a Saint based off of your interpretation of this passage?  Please make sure I understand what conclusion you advocating.  I feel like I'm quibbling over details and the foundational conclusion has drifted while I was looking the other direction.

That passage shows spiritual growth, the breaking of the bonds was different.  Harry himself admits this, before Ghost Story he simply would have added some soulfire to his spell to break the bonds, this time he dug deeper involving his new understanding about his soul.  It doesn't mean that Harry currently is a saint, but he could be headed in that direction..   Here are the facts, Harry consorts on a regular basis with an archangel, ordinary people don't do that, no other wizard that we know of does that... The only ones in the Dresdenverse that seem to are Knights of the Cross, in traditional parlance, having an archangel appear to you at all puts one in the running for sainthood.   Harry was made custodian of the Holy Swords, for whatever reason, he is being used as an instrument for the selection of Holy Knights, even one night wonders...  In contrast, Murphy claimed to be, but it was a matter of her taking it upon herself, not a job bestowed on her by the Almighty... At the end of Skin Game we see the custodianship returned to Harry.. That is another mark that eventually may lead to his sainthood.. He has managed to reject the influence of a Fallen Angel, and was rewarded with a gift from an archangel, that is another pebble on the side of eventual sainthood.  The whole point is there is nothing to disqualify him from someday achieving this status, and lots of evidence that he could be heading in that direction.   Becoming a saint isn't just externals or input from Powers on High, it is also about internals, if you've read anything about the life of saints, much of their struggles are about them, the internals, and how that affects their relationship with God. 

I kind of feel like there isnt really much support for Either of those assertions.  Harry is not, by any rational definition Ive heard, a Man of Faith; he's shown instances of faith, but it is by no means a defining trait of his.  And we have Zero information on what sort of Faith the other wizards have, aside from Harry repeated mentions most do not actively reject all the religious trapping of Magic the way he does; otherwise LTW is the closest thing to a data point we have, and he definitely involves his deities more (if not full Blessing Way clergy). 

Yet in his own way, Harry is a man of faith, that is the basis for everything he is, his moral code..  I think Rashid is another wizard aside from LTW who shows a deep religious faith, or appears to be. 

[Serack]

That passage shows spiritual growth, the breaking of the bonds was different.  Harry himself admits this, before Ghost Story he simply would have added some soulfire to his spell to break the bonds, this time he dug deeper involving his new understanding about his soul.  It doesn't mean that Harry currently is a saint, but he could be headed in that direction..   Here are the facts, Harry consorts on a regular basis with an archangel, ordinary people don't do that, no other wizard that we know of does that... The only ones in the Dresdenverse that seem to are Knights of the Cross, in traditional parlance, having an archangel appear to you at all puts one in the running for sainthood.   Harry was made custodian of the Holy Swords, for whatever reason, he is being used as an instrument for the selection of Holy Knights, even one night wonders...  In contrast, Murphy claimed to be, but it was a matter of her taking it upon herself, not a job bestowed on her by the Almighty... At the end of Skin Game we see the custodianship returned to Harry.. That is another mark that eventually may lead to his sainthood.. He has managed to reject the influence of a Fallen Angel, and was rewarded with a gift from an archangel, that is another pebble on the side of eventual sainthood.  The whole point is there is nothing to disqualify him from someday achieving this status, and lots of evidence that he could be heading in that direction.   Becoming a saint isn't just externals or input from Powers on High, it is also about internals, if you've read anything about the life of saints, much of their struggles are about them, the internals, and how that affects their relationship with God. 

I'll give you a Doyalist thing that makes the overall story arc less likely to end with him as a Saint.  Jim has explicitly stated that the story outline had three possibilities for the power Harry could have reached for to save the day in Changes.  The relevant one is Lasciel's coin.  He's even shared an entire alternate plotline for how things could have rolled out from there.  Now it's not impossible for him to turn from that and still become a Saint, (Nick acts like even he has potential) and thus not entirely disqualify him... but it sure makes it less likely in my mind. 

Permit me to revisit my reason for bringing up that Cold Days passage.  Harry (And WoJ) frequently describes his magic as manipulating the fundamental forces of Nature/Creation, but that these forces in his grasp are non sentient.  I would like to posit that a true HiP in the DF is the willed, sentient being that represents the fundamental forces that created reality behind the curtain of mortal ignorance.  Now I'm well known for theorizing that this concept of willed creative force has a fractious nature with multiple identities/beings representing aspects of the whole, but the portion of Cold Days passage that I was concerned with when I brought it up in the first place is bolded below:

I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---against the will of an ancient being of darkness, terror, and malice, a fundamental power of the world.

So here's my line of reasoning.  And thus my point in bringing up the passage.

• Harry's faith magic is based upon his belief in the fundamental forces of magic / forces of life and creation. But not embodied by a higher will
• Mother Winter is literally a fundamental power of the world embodied by a will and sentient identity.
• Mother Winter has Authority over Harry because of choices he made.
• This means Mother Winter embodies a portion of the fundamental forces that make up Harry's magic, and therefore his faith, AND has direct authority over him.  Said differently, Mother Winter is the embodiment of the Higher Power (HiP) Harry's faith resides in that has genuine authority over him.
• Harry meets his HiP and (understandably) pulls off the bit of magic we are so excited about in DEFIANCE of his HiP.
• Harry emphasizes that he is in control of his destiny, not his HiP a few pages later.
  
  (click to show/hide)

  "You can take my body and run it like a puppet.  You can kill me.  You can curse me and torture me and turn me into an animal."
  "You can destroy me.  But you can't make me be anything but what I choose to be, ma'am."

Now Quantus argues for a mechanism for a DF mortal to become a Saint without absolute dedication to the HiP that uses them as their Champion.  Lets call it the path to sainthood without Fidelity.  I find this concept to be kinda oxymoronic, but intriguing anyways.  Without it though, I don't see how the bulleted sequence of reasoning could represent a pebble on the side of eventual sainthood.  On the contrary, before I contemplated Quantus' proposal, I considered it a resolute data point against Harry's candidacy for Sainthood, which is why I brought it up. 

Which is why your arguing the opposite boggled my mind.  Along with the mountain of quibbles I've responded with that is.

Excellent point about Rashid by the way.

[wyltok]

Here are the facts, Harry consorts on a regular basis with an archangel, ordinary people don't do that, no other wizard that we know of does that... The only ones in the Dresdenverse that seem to are Knights of the Cross, in traditional parlance, having an archangel appear to you at all puts one in the running for sainthood.

The key part of that sentence is "that we know of".

Most of the older wizards have got their own crazy background of powerups which they do not advertise. Listens-To-Wind's shapeshifting isn't purely a matter of wizardly skill (though his healing abilities are), for example.
But here's the key thing about people of power in the Dresden universe (and in the real world): the truly dangerous folks do not advertise. Not ever. They have no need to show off, and constantly displaying how scary they are would be counter to their own interests. [/snip]
All the senior wizards have got something up their sleeve, and every single one of them is hiding it from all the others. If they don't know about it, they can't plan for it, and the "knowledge is power" wizard crowd is all about planning for things.
But we are coming up on the time when people are going to have their backs to the wall and we're going to start seeing what they've got. And I've been looking forward to writing it for nearly twenty years. >

Harry was made custodian of the Holy Swords, for whatever reason, he is being used as an instrument for the selection of Holy Knights, even one night wonders...

Hm, that brings up an interesting question in my mind: was the original Merlin a Saint?

[Mira]

The key part of that sentence is "that we know of".

Hm, that brings up an interesting question in my mind: was the original Merlin a Saint?

He could very well have been, but not in the traditional sense..

I'll give you a Doyalist thing that makes the overall story arc less likely to end with him as a Saint.  Jim has explicitly stated that the story outline had three possibilities for the power Harry could have reached for to save the day in Changes.  The relevant one is Lasciel's coin.  He's even shared an entire alternate plotline for how things could have rolled out from there.  Now it's not impossible for him to turn from that and still become a Saint, (Nick acts like even he has potential) and thus not entirely disqualify him... but it sure makes it less likely in my mind.

However Harry didn't chose to take back the coin, did he?  He took the least bad of three bad options, not the easiest, the least bad..    It is all about his choices, one reason why Uriel called him a Warrior for the light, because many of Harry's choices made a difference for the better in other people's lives..  No, it isn't cut and dry, there is lots of gray, that is the whole point.    Harry could still turn out very badly, or he won't.. Hey Nick may turn and become a saint, I have a sneaking suspicion that is what Uriel is gunning for.

Permit me to revisit my reason for bringing up that Cold Days passage.  Harry (And WoJ) frequently describes his magic as manipulating the fundamental forces of Nature/Creation, but that these forces in his grasp are non sentient.  I would like to posit that a true HiP in the DF is the willed, sentient being that represents the fundamental forces that created reality behind the curtain of mortal ignorance.  Now I'm well known for theorizing that this concept of willed creative force has a fractious nature with multiple identities/beings representing aspects of the whole, but the portion of Cold Days passage that I was concerned with when I brought it up in the first place is bolded below:

Yes, but you are leaving out the whole point of the soul's walkabout that Uriel sent Harry on..   Who is to say that a Higher Power wasn't behind it, no matter what Harry thinks.. As often said before here, he's been known to be wrong..   And further just because it's Harry's understanding at the time, it doesn't make it true..  As Uriel told him in the Warrior..

"Harry," Jake said, sighing.  "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all.  Not yet, anyway.  Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one.  Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."

This hints of enlightenment for Harry as his soul journeys though life..  My contention his admission that the issue of the soul is a lot more complicated than Bob maintains is yet another small step on that journey.. I doubt he would have said that before Ghost Story.

"You can take my body and run it like a puppet.  You can kill me.  You can curse me and torture me and turn me into an animal."
"You can destroy me.  But you can't make me be anything but what I choose to be, ma'am."

No, she cannot, but that doesn't in any way conflict with what Uriel has told him, just because a Higher Power is guiding doesn't cancel out free will, a saint isn't a puppet, a saint makes choices like anyone else... Sometimes they resign themselves to being an instrument of that Higher Power, but it is still their choice to do so..  Mother Winter is part of creation as are we all, none of that conflicts with who Harry basically is. 

Lastly consider what Father Forthill told Harry in Proven Guilty, even admitting that Harry isn't a religious man..  Harry has just asked him if he really believes that God put him in place to save Molly.

He regarded me as he replaced his spectacles, bright blue eyes steady.  "I do.  I know you don't much hold with religion, Dresden.  But I've come to know you over the years.  I think you are a decent man.  And God knows His own."

Then  on the next page after Harry scoffs at the idea that God has him warming up in the bullpen as one of his champions.. Father Forthill answers.

"Perhaps not,"  Forthill said.  "But I think that you are being prepared, nonetheless."
"Prepared?" I asked.  "For what? By whom?"
Forthill shook his head.  "It's an old man's hunch, that's all.  That the things you're facing now are there to prepare you for something greater.  Something more."

[Serack]

He could very well have been, but not in the traditional sense..
However Harry didn't chose to take back the coin, did he?  He took the least bad of three bad options, not the easiest, the least bad..    It is all about his choices, one reason why Uriel called him a Warrior for the light, because many of Harry's choices made a difference for the better in other people's lives..  No, it isn't cut and dry, there is lots of gray, that is the whole point.    Harry could still turn out very badly, or he won't.. Hey Nick may turn and become a saint, I have a sneaking suspicion that is what Uriel is gunning for.

As my point was a Doyalist one, this isn't nearly as relevant.  If Jim had a plan in place for Harry to have become a champion of a Fallen Angel, then it is very Likely that fundamental Arc of the series didn't include him becoming a Saint.  The fact that Jim didn't chose that path for Harry doesn't change that.  You make me doubt my ability to communicate things that I thought I made clear the first time through. 

Yes, but you are leaving out the whole point of the soul's walkabout that Uriel sent Harry on..   Who is to say that a Higher Power wasn't behind it, no matter what Harry thinks.. As often said before here, he's been known to be wrong..   And further just because it's Harry's understanding at the time, it doesn't make it true..  As Uriel told him in the Warrior..

One post you emphasize how much he has progressed in his understanding of soulfire, now that I illustrate how his explicit description of soulfire is contrary to a saintly act, you are arguing he didn't know what he was doing.  I'll stick with the idea that he knew what he was saying when he described the power as coming from within when he defied his Higher Power. 

Also, at the end of the Warrior, Harry tried to bill an Archangel for his deeds.  Clearly taking a stance that if he was going to be on the clock for the Almighty, he wanted to be compensated like by any other client.  Yah, it was established that he's going to do the right thing anyways.  But absolutely not because of his Fidelity to the Almighty. 

This hints of enlightenment for Harry as his soul journeys though life..  My contention his admission that the issue of the soul is a lot more complicated than Bob maintains is yet another small step on that journey.. I doubt he would have said that before Ghost Story.

*rubs head*  How is this relevant to my claiming he used soulfire to deny the personification of his faith?

No, she cannot, but that doesn't in any way conflict with what Uriel has told him, just because a Higher Power is guiding doesn't cancel out free will, a saint isn't a puppet, a saint makes choices like anyone else... Sometimes they resign themselves to being an instrument of that Higher Power, but it is still their choice to do so..  Mother Winter is part of creation as are we all, none of that conflicts with who Harry basically is. 

Um, I'm saying Mother Winter is a FUNDAMENTAL part of the powers of creation.  Ancient, and part of what shaped it in the first place, definitely not "as are we all." 

Who Harry is, is the fulcrum that defies higher powers, throwing off their chains and trying to bill them for his work when they assume he will do their Will simply because it's in his nature. 

Lastly consider what Father Forthill told Harry in Proven Guilty, even admitting that Harry isn't a religious man..  Harry has just asked him if he really believes that God put him in place to save Molly.
Then  on the next page after Harry scoffs at the idea that God has him warming up in the bullpen as one of his champions.. Father Forthill answers.

"Perhaps not,"  Forthill said.  "But I think that you are being prepared, nonetheless."
"Prepared?" I asked.  "For what? By whom?"
Forthill shook his head.  "It's an old man's hunch, that's all.  That the things you're facing now are there to prepare you for something greater.  Something more."

Um, that's been a theme for a while, and there's strong evidence that both his Godmother, and Vadderung have been doing much of that preparing, in edition to Uriel stepping in and giving him Soulfire and orchestrating a soul walkabout in GS. 


I'm questioning why I'm going through the trouble to craft responses.  Am I trying to get you to concede something based upon the power of my arguments?  What exactly am I arguing for you to acknowledge then?  Is there a reciprocal, valid point you are trying to make that's validity I am failing to acknowledge due to my zeal in trying to prove my point? 

Critical points that are important to me and drive me to argue for your equivocated acknowledgement: 

• Harry has no Fidelity towards an external, sentient, willed Higher Power
• Unless Sainthood doesn't require the above, Harry is not now a Saint. 
• Harry's eventual Sainthood, although not impossible is not an inevitability of the story arc. 

Critical points I might be able to draw from your arguments:

• Harry displays saint like qualities.
• Harry is on a path that could be leading to Sainthood for the Almighty

I can envision a Ven diagram of the meaning of my above critical points, and my interpolation of your critical points having commonality.  And thus room for peaceful agreement. 

[Mira]

As my point was a Doyalist one, this isn't nearly as relevant.  If Jim had a plan in place for Harry to have become a champion of a Fallen Angel, then it is very Likely that fundamental Arc of the series didn't include him becoming a Saint.  The fact that Jim didn't chose that path for Harry doesn't change that.  You make me doubt my ability to communicate things that I thought I made clear the first time through. 

No, actually we do not know the outcome of it yet, because saints usually are not declared until after they have died and two or three miracles have happened do to their intersession with God.   However you perhaps know best, since you are in the know about a lot of what Jim has in mind, puts you at a bit of an unfair advantage in a debate like this.   No, I am not sure by this,

If Jim had a plan in place for Harry to have become a champion of a Fallen Angel, then it is very Likely that fundamental Arc of the series didn't include him becoming a Saint

He did, but Harry rejected the fallen angel, and as a result was rewarded by an archangel, stuff like that happens to prospective saints...  I cannot see into Jim's mind, nor have I seen his outline for the whole series.. But so far nothing has happened that would contradict anything I've said about Harry given what has happened in the lives of real saints..  As a reader I can only speculate on with that logic and knowledge..

One post you emphasize how much he has progressed in his understanding of soulfire, now that I illustrate how his explicit description of soulfire is contrary to a saintly act, you are arguing he didn't know what he was doing.  I'll stick with the idea that he knew what he was saying when he described the power as coming from within when he defied his Higher Power.

Not at all, he defied Mother Winter, but the Almighty might be above even her pay grade..  Also where did the soulfire originally come from?  Harry didn't conger that one up, he knows where that came from.. He also knows now that it is more than what Bob first described to him.  Oh, Harry knew what he was doing, and by using it they way he did, I simply do not see it as defying God..  It was with a heck of a lot more understanding than his use of it before when he simply used it to turbocharge his spells with fears that he was using up his soul.. Which may be why Uriel didn't give him a manual with it, there are truths he had to discover for himself.

Also, at the end of the Warrior, Harry tried to bill an Archangel for his deeds.  Clearly taking a stance that if he was going to be on the clock for the Almighty, he wanted to be compensated like by any other client.  Yah, it was established that he's going to do the right thing anyways.  But absolutely not because of his Fidelity to the Almighty. 

No, because when Uriel asked Harry if he was going to "bill the Almighty?"  Harry answered, "heck no.." He was billing Uriel..

*rubs head*  How is this relevant to my claiming he used soulfire to deny the personification of his faith?

Sigh, because pre Ghost Story, Harry wasn't sure what a soul even was...  Fundamental lesson from Ghost Story as Uriel tells Harry.

Uriel's smile blossomed again.  "You've got it backward, Harry," He said.  "You are a soul.  You havea body."

That realization is a small step on the road to enlightenment, Harry took it in that moment against Mother Winter.

Um, I'm saying Mother Winter is a FUNDAMENTAL part of the powers of creation.  Ancient, and part of what shaped it in the first place, definitely not "as are we all."

Who Harry is, is the fulcrum that defies higher powers, throwing off their chains and trying to bill them for his work when they assume he will do their Will simply because it's in his nature. 

Yes, but that doesn't change how he will be perceived after he dies.

I can envision a Ven diagram of the meaning of my above critical points, and my interpolation of your critical points having commonality.  And thus room for peaceful agreement. 

Leave it at that.

[Serack]

Also, at the end of the Warrior, Harry tried to bill an Archangel for his deeds.  Clearly taking a stance that if he was going to be on the clock for the Almighty, he wanted to be compensated like by any other client.  Yah, it was established that he's going to do the right thing anyways.  But absolutely not because of his Fidelity to the Almighty.

No, because when Uriel asked Harry if he was going to "bill the Almighty?"  Harry answered, "heck no.." He was billing Uriel..

Come again?

[Mira]

No, because when Uriel asked Harry if he was going to "bill the Almighty?"  Harry answered, "heck no.." He was billing Uriel..


Come again?

"You're. . . you're trying to bill the Lord God Almighty?"  Jake said, as if he couldn't quite believe it.
"Hel---uh, heck no," I said.  "I'm billing you."

Now Jake did say that isn't how they work, and Harry replied that he'd just sit buy and whistle next time they needed him.. To which Jake replied that he wouldn't... The final sentence in the story was...

But I was pretty sure he was right.

That in of itself is an acknowledgement...

[Serack]

The point of my asking you to come again was to give you a chance to reread what I wrote (with highlighting on parts that already exactly addressed your counter point, then my conclusions also highlighted) and then actually address what I wrote.

Your second response yet again reiterates exactly what I already explicitly acknowledged, and doesn't address my conclusions. 

So once more.

Come again?

[Avernite]

So...

Might we be at an impasse because one side assumes Faith is a necessity for Sainthood (and specific Faith in TWG, to be precise) while the other side is focusing on how actions speak louder than words (and than thoughts, and than Faith)?

Because that would be quite funny, if we reproduced one of the great divides of real-world Christianity.

[Mira]

So...

Might we be at an impasse because one side assumes Faith is a necessity for Sainthood (and specific Faith in TWG, to be precise) while the other side is focusing on how actions speak louder than words (and than thoughts, and than Faith)?

Because that would be quite funny, if we reproduced one of the great divides of real-world Christianity.

 It is also a matter of understanding what faith is...  One can be a person of faith without religion..   Harry is on a first name basis with an archangel, he received a gift from that archangel, a gift of fundamental creation, as Bob said, "it's how angels do all their stuff.."  Now where did the angels get this gift called soulfire?  Harry knows where they got it, and he doesn't question that, not for one moment.. That is what faith is all about.

[groinkick]

It is also a matter of understanding what faith is...  One can be a person of faith without religion..   Harry is on a first name basis with an archangel, he received a gift from that archangel, a gift of fundamental creation, as Bob said, "it's how angels do all their stuff.."  Now where did the angels get this gift called soulfire?  Harry knows where they got it, and he doesn't question that, not for one moment.. That is what faith is all about.

Soulfire isn't faith based magic.  It's a power source (his own soul) he was granted the ability to tap into in order to balance the scales.  No faith required.