What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[wyltok]

From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane.  By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.

On the other hand, he was also at exactly the right place and the right time to babysit Michael's kids when Michael and Harry needed to rescue Charity in Grave Peril. That does seem to qualify as Divine Intervention, even if it isn't sponsored magic per se.

I like where your head is at, but I sorta feel funny about trying to model Sponsored magic as a Thaumaturgic effect. 

My first instinct usually is to assume the same rules apply for everyone, and the differences are a function of scale, rather than different rules for different people. So, I'm basically proposing that while Father Forthill can serve as an instrument for TWG, someone whoes personality and lifestyle isn't as aligned with TWG couldn't have been moved to be in the right place at the right time.

Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?

...huh, after writing that, I suddenly realize that I'm basically applying the Fae model to TWG, aren't I? By which I mean, that Fae Queens can't kill people who aren't somehow connected to the Courts.

From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane.  By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.

Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?

[Rasins]

Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?

I'd say so.  I'd say Thomas just "deciding" to follow Harry around in PG may have been TWG's influence.  I mean why else would he do it.  Or Molly, when she "snuck in" to the morgue, but was able to pull the pleasure death.  Or, when Harry got pissed, ground out his energy and it ended up blowing Murphy's car up.  All coincidences, but all could be the influence of TWG.

Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?

I think he could give his grace to anyone, but I think he only trusts very few.  Micheal is this generation.

[Quantus]

On the other hand, he was also at exactly the right place and the right time to babysit Michael's kids when Michael and Harry needed to rescue Charity in Grave Peril. That does seem to qualify as Divine Intervention, even if it isn't sponsored magic per se.

My first instinct usually is to assume the same rules apply for everyone, and the differences are a function of scale, rather than different rules for different people. So, I'm basically proposing that while Father Forthill can serve as an instrument for TWG, someone whoes personality and lifestyle isn't as aligned with TWG couldn't have been moved to be in the right place at the right time.

Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?

...huh, after writing that, I suddenly realize that I'm basically applying the Fae model to TWG, aren't I? By which I mean, that Fae Queens can't kill people who aren't somehow connected to the Courts.

I think it would depend on the actual nature of the manipulation, I'd suspect, because Free Will and Choice are paramount to TWG's side.  The babysitting bit (or any of the Knight coocidence events) would (I suspect) get a pass because those individuals have, as part of their Faith, given TWG /permission/ to do such things.  I know the wording of my own Baptism back in the day would fit, and I suspect Confirmations and whatnot are pretty similar, and the Vows of a priest even moreso.  But on the flip-side, if TWG were to fiddle with weather or the timing of a Traffic light or something that might be allowable, if it doesnt negate anyone's Choices. 

Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?

With Shiro gone, I dont think Id trust anyone currently on stage with the Grace.  However I dont think it would be cosmically limited by compatibility, given his level of Power I think Uriel could cram it into whomever he chose, From Mister to Persephone to a Nic himself if he really needed to.  The only limit I suspect there might be is that the bearer of a Grace must have/be a Soul, so mortals yes but NN spirits likely would not qualify.

[Mira]

With Shiro gone, I dont think Id trust anyone currently on stage with the Grace.  However I dont think it would be cosmically limited by compatibility, given his level of Power I think Uriel could cram it into whomever he chose, From Mister to Persephone to a Nic himself if he really needed to.  The only limit I suspect there might be is that the bearer of a Grace must have/be a Soul, so mortals yes but NN spirits likely would not qualify.

I agree with most of this, however I doubt it would be risked even with someone whom Uriel or any archangel had absolute trust in unless the need for it was extreme..  Which begs the question of whether Mab, Marcone, Hades, and even Nic were being manipulated by a higher power so that the relics could be retrieved by Harry?

[wyltok]

Which begs the question of whether Mab, Marcone, Hades, and even Nic were being manipulated by a higher power so that the relics could be retrieved by Harry?

I wouldn't say manipulated, when it comes to Mab and Hades, or even Nic. The WoJ below suggests pretty strongly to me that they all know the BAT is coming, and all the big players are doing high risk, high reward plans precisely because they know they will be needing things like the Relics and the faithsaber in the (from their perspective) very near future.

stilleto929: There have been 3 times that Nicodemus has told Dresden that time is running out. In Death Masks, after capturing Harry, Nicodemus says, “Your history indicates that you are too dangerous to leave alive, I’m afraid – and I am on a schedule.” Then in Small Favor, in the aquarium, Nicodemus says, “…tempus fugit. For all of us.” Then again in Small Favor, in the boat, Nicodemus says, “Dresden, I truly regret this necessity, but time is growing short. I must act…” WHY would an effectively-immortal person be so worried about time?!? The first instance can be explained by having a plane to catch, but the others seem…unusual. Is Nicodemus’s concern about time significant? I.e. showing to the reader that he believes something BIG will happen soon, and he has to be ready? Or is this just a conversational ploy to move the plot along? Would appreciate any info you could give us about this issue. Thanks in advance! - Stiletto (Celia)
Jim: The clock is ticking, and the clued people know it. /Especially/ to someone a couple of thousand years old, it really feels like we've already hit the two minute warning.

[Quantus]

I agree with most of this, however I doubt it would be risked even with someone whom Uriel or any archangel had absolute trust in unless the need for it was extreme..  Which begs the question of whether Mab, Marcone, Hades, and even Nic were being manipulated by a higher power so that the relics could be retrieved by Harry?

I wouldn't say manipulated, when it comes to Mab and Hades, or even Nic. The WoJ below suggests pretty strongly to me that they all know the BAT is coming, and all the big players are doing high risk, high reward plans precisely because they know they will be needing things like the Relics and the faithsaber in the (from their perspective) very near future.

I find myself agreeing with both of these sentiments...I think the line between Encouraged and Manipulated gets fuzzy for several reasons, you can never be really sure whats coincidence or not, and have to take it on Faith (see what I did there?) that it doesnt cross the Free Will line.  Not to mention that Mab and Tinfoil hats go together like Tanks and Hula Dancers.   

[Aegnoralkarin]

I'd like to butt in at this point and say this - why is the assumption that a Saint can only be a worshipper of the Abrahamic Almighty? There could well be a Horus worshipping saint, or (tickles my fancy, this one) a mercenary who doubles as a saint because he's the purest of Odin worshippers.

[Mira]

I'd like to butt in at this point and say this - why is the assumption that a Saint can only be a worshipper of the Abrahamic Almighty? There could well be a Horus worshipping saint, or (tickles my fancy, this one) a mercenary who doubles as a saint because he's the purest of Odin worshippers.

I wouldn't disagree with this because there are "saints"  in all religions and some who don't believe in anything..

[ClintACK]

I'd like to butt in at this point and say this - why is the assumption that a Saint can only be a worshipper of the Abrahamic Almighty? There could well be a Horus worshipping saint, or (tickles my fancy, this one) a mercenary who doubles as a saint because he's the purest of Odin worshippers.

The DV is definitely a universe in which Taoist saints and bodhisattvas and Hindu avatars and Catholic saints and Norse gods and vodoun loa can meet up at a cocktail party thrown by Anansi and the Monkey King.  (No idea if I got all the capitalizations right in that sentence.)

But different faiths definitely have different ideas of what a "holy man" looks like!

[Quantus]

I wouldn't disagree with this because there are "saints"  in all religions and some who don't believe in anything..

Are there any, specifically?  I fully expect there to be some sort of empowered "Holy Man" in most if not all religions, but I cannot actually think of any specifically comparable to Saint (who is more an empowered champion than simply a Holy Man).   My first thought was possibly a Buddha (as in the title) but that is a far more Internalized ascension, whereas my understanding of a Saint is fairly specifically Empowered by their deity.

[Mira]

Are there any, specifically?  I fully expect there to be some sort of empowered "Holy Man" in most if not all religions, but I cannot actually think of any specifically comparable to Saint (who is more an empowered champion than simply a Holy Man).   My first thought was possibly a Buddha (as in the title) but that is a far more Internalized ascension, whereas my understanding of a Saint is fairly specifically Empowered by their deity.

Yeah, but what does Empowered mean exactly?  I see no distinction between what you call an Internalized ascension and an external one, both would tell you they are Empowered by their deity to do or become whatever they have become.. 

[Quantus]

Yeah, but what does Empowered mean exactly?  I see no distinction between what you call an Internalized ascension and an external one, both would tell you they are Empowered by their deity to do or become whatever they have become..

By "Internalized" I mean it's something that is 100% credited to the mortal themselves, as opposed to an investiture of Power from an external source.  No deity is ever given credit for reaching a state of Buddha, that's considered the Mortal's accomplishment. 

But I dont think we can go quite so far as to say any time a mortal gets Power from a NN source it qualifies them as "Saint".  Saint cannot simply be a generic Powerup, otherwise a Coin or a Curse or Knight Mantle or a possessing Spirit would all qualify. 

[wyltok]

Like I said earlier, I'm kinda partial to assuming all pantheons play by the same rules, even if they appear to be playing different games. And there does appear to be some similarities to what happens to Knights of the Sword and what happens when one is ridden by a Loa in the Vodoun religion...

[Quantus]

Like I said earlier, I'm kinda partial to assuming all pantheons play by the same rules, even if they appear to be playing different games. And there does appear to be some similarities to what happens to Knights of the Sword and what happens when one is ridden by a Loa in the Vodoun religion...

I agree with not making anything particularly specific to a given religion, but Im still not behind expanding the definition so far, to the point where it applies to anyone with some kind of spiritual significance, regardless of source or characteristics.

[Mira]

By "Internalized" I mean it's something that is 100% credited to the mortal themselves, as opposed to an investiture of Power from an external source.  No deity is ever given credit for reaching a state of Buddha, that's considered the Mortal's accomplishment. 

But I dont think we can go quite so far as to say any time a mortal gets Power from a NN source it qualifies them as "Saint".  Saint cannot simply be a generic Powerup, otherwise a Coin or a Curse or Knight Mantle or a possessing Spirit would all qualify.

Yes, I agree that the term "saint" has to be applied with more discretion, however I disagree about what you are saying about the holy men who attain the title or state of Buddha..   

I agree with not making anything particularly specific to a given religion, but Im still not behind expanding the definition so far, to the point where it applies to anyone with some kind of spiritual significance, regardless of source or characteristics

Then just what are you saying?   With in the Dresden universe, keeping to that for a moment, we've known five Holy Sword holders, Shiro, Sanya, Murphy, Michael, and the latest, Butters,  by your definition of sainthood, of these five, who is likely to be one?  Since he is the only one of the ones we've known that has died, do you think Shiro will be declared one or is an undeclared one?