What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[Avernite]

I believe a saint is something else.

A saint is someone who, as Uriel describes it in the Warrior, fights the good fight in myriads of ways.

A handful, sometimes, will be acting as leaders of the flock against supernatural evils, or as conduits for a miracle, but 9 times out of 10 they will just go about their lives, helping their fellow man and making their lives better.

In that way, Father Forthill seems the best of the current crop for sainthood including his ability to detect a ghost/soul, with the likes of Shiro and (if he had died) Michael being more on course for becoming venerated martyrs (being still alive, Michael might well make the road to sainthood at some point). Harry also could easily become a martyr given his tendency to act as a Knight-of-the-Cross-bonus.

[Mira]

I believe a saint is something else.

A saint is someone who, as Uriel describes it in the Warrior, fights the good fight in myriads of ways.

A handful, sometimes, will be acting as leaders of the flock against supernatural evils, or as conduits for a miracle, but 9 times out of 10 they will just go about their lives, helping their fellow man and making their lives better.

In that way, Father Forthill seems the best of the current crop for sainthood including his ability to detect a ghost/soul, with the likes of Shiro and (if he had died) Michael being more on course for becoming venerated martyrs (being still alive, Michael might well make the road to sainthood at some point). Harry also could easily become a martyr given his tendency to act as a Knight-of-the-Cross-bonus.

I think that covers pretty much what many of us have said..

Oh, no not what I meant at all, just meant that Uriel seems to communicate directly (confirmed by Michael) while I dont see TWG bothering to actually communicate anything with her, s/he'd arrange things and omnisciently Know how she would react

I didn't mean directly with Mab, but consider both Harry's soul walk about, something Mab seemingly had to agree to at Uriel's insistence.. And in Small Favor when Mab admits that that time anyway her and Uriel were playing on the same side against a common foe... In any of these matters Uriel cannot act unilaterally, he has to have orders or approval from the Boss..  Uriel communicates this to Mab, so by chain of command she also gets her orders from the top.. Like in the military, the general doesn't directly order the private but the private still gets the orders down the food chain..

[Avernite]

I think that covers pretty much what many of us have said..

Hmm, well, I didn't see it written out that way, but I suppose others may have considered that to fall under the 'any truely Holy Man' option.

I didn't mean directly with Mab, but consider both Harry's soul walk about, something Mab seemingly had to agree to at Uriel's insistence.. And in Small Favor when Mab admits that that time anyway her and Uriel were playing on the same side against a common foe... In any of these matters Uriel cannot act unilaterally, he has to have orders or approval from the Boss..  Uriel communicates this to Mab, so by chain of command she also gets her orders from the top.. Like in the military, the general doesn't directly order the private but the private still gets the orders down the food chain..

I don't know, seems to me like Uriel (if playing by the rules) has plenty of leeway. I don't think he has to go back to TWG and get official approval before he acts; he knows Divine Law as clearly as Toot knows Winter Law (else he'd inevitably mess up and Fall without meaning to).

Plus, it's unclear if Mab ever got 'orders' in the process. Seems to me like she's an ally agreeing on a plan rather than a 'private' getting orders.

[Mira]

Hmm, well, I didn't see it written out that way, but I suppose others may have considered that to fall under the 'any truely Holy Man' option.
I don't know, seems to me like Uriel (if playing by the rules) has plenty of leeway. I don't think he has to go back to TWG and get official approval before he acts; he knows Divine Law as clearly as Toot knows Winter Law (else he'd inevitably mess up and Fall without meaning to).

Plus, it's unclear if Mab ever got 'orders' in the process. Seems to me like she's an ally agreeing on a plan rather than a 'private' getting orders.

   She may feel like she is agreeing, but in Ghost Story it is clear that Uriel had the authority to push his plan, and she had no choice but to go along.  Uriel may have wiggle room but he cannot color outside of the lines, and face it, if an archangel falls it is a super big deal..

[Quantus]

Ya, Im firmly of the opinion that Uriel and Mab never had any direct communication.  He acted, she was simply forced to REact. But she had no say and no opportunity or offer to Agree or Disagree. 

[Mira]

Ya, Im firmly of the opinion that Uriel and Mab never had any direct communication.  He acted, she was simply forced to REact. But she had no say and no opportunity or offer to Agree or Disagree.

Agreed, she didn't like it, but she had no choice but to go along, Uriel was in charge here. 

"Oh the Quiet One angered us, sending your essence out unprotected.  Had he been incorrect, I would have
been robbed of my knight, and the old monster of his custodian."

Further underscored in my opinion when Uriel whispered the seven words to Harry, assuring him that he still had choices as far as Mab's orders were concerned.

[Rasins]

Wasn't there a conversation between Harry and Nick where Harry says something like "You're not Saint".  And Nick responds with, "well not yet anyway."

I'm only mentioning this because there may be something there too.

On a definition note, and I know many believe that upper and lower case use is a pain, but ....

A saint is anyone who believes.
A Saint is anyone the Church has recognized as having 'For Sure' gone to heaven and is WITH God.

Not really helpful in our conversation, but, ALL believers are saints.

[Quantus]

Wasn't there a conversation between Harry and Nick where Harry says something like "You're not Saint".  And Nick responds with, "well not yet anyway."

I'm only mentioning this because there may be something there too.

On a definition note, and I know many believe that upper and lower case use is a pain, but ....

A saint is anyone who believes.
A Saint is anyone the Church has recognized as having 'For Sure' gone to heaven and is WITH God.

Not really helpful in our conversation, but, ALL believers are saints.

Yaaa, I just cant get behind that.  Saint needs to be a more exclusive club; being /pope/ doesnt even guarantee you become a Saint. 

As to Nic's comment, my working theory has always been that he anticipates a change of Management in Heaven, at which point it would be His side that is declaring/defining Sainthood

[Rasins]

Yaaa, I just cant get behind that.  Saint needs to be a more exclusive club; being /pope/ doesnt even guarantee you become a Saint. 

As to Nic's comment, my working theory has always been that he anticipates a change of Management in Heaven, at which point it would be His side that is declaring/defining Sainthood

I agree, and that's why there is the distinction between upper and lower case S for saints.  Per St. Paul, all believers are saints. 

Only those who are recognized as having actually attained heaven are called Saints.

[Mira]

I agree, and that's why there is the distinction between upper and lower case S for saints.  Per St. Paul, all believers are saints. 

Only those who are recognized as having actually attained heaven are called Saints.

That is all true, being a pope doesn't guareentee sainthood, though two in our life time have been declared so though they were very good men and engineered some big changes, neither went around making miracles..  The question is how does the Church know for sure this person or that one attained Heaven?  It used to be a harder process up until 1983 with several levels of blessedness, there were a number of hearings with those advocating for sainthood and those arguing just as vigorously against any "proof" presented, it could take years even centuries, St. Joan of Arc for example was not declared a saint until the 1920s.  Since 1983 the process has been streamlined, with some towns paying big bucks for specialized lawyers to advocate for a blessed son or daughter for sainthood...  Some things haven't changed from the time that chicken bones were sold or passed off as a finger bone of some venerated saint, someone is always out to make a buck..

[wyltok]

I don't recommend spending too much time focusing on the real world definition of a saint: the main requirement is being dead. This whole topic sprung up due to a WoJ about Saints (+ mobs) vs. Blampire Elders. I'm assuming we're all working from the idea that the Saints are involved in fighting the Blampires before their death, no? Or, at the very least, up to the moment of their death...

My proposal: let's ignore labels for now. The question is, if TWG wanted to provide Divine Intervention to help take out someone like a Blampire, what would they need? Is TWG (and his organization) limited to only acting through the wielders of the Swords? Can they go beyond that? Per the rules of thaumaturgy, External Power requires a sympathetic connection. What kind of person can be used to channel a Miracle? Would being a conduit to a Miracle change the nature of the person in the future? The way they act (probably increases their faith)?

[Quantus]

I agree, and that's why there is the distinction between upper and lower case S for saints.  Per St. Paul, all believers are saints. 

Only those who are recognized as having actually attained heaven are called Saints.

aha, but you couldnt tell which I was talking about simply because it started the sentence!! This is ANARCHY!! 

If you want levels, can we please try to fit it into the Venerated/Beautified/Saint terms for as long as we can?

[Quantus]

My proposal: let's ignore labels for now. The question is, if TWG wanted to provide Divine Intervention to help take out someone like a Blampire, what would they need? Is TWG (and his organization) limited to only acting through the wielders of the Swords? Can they go beyond that? Per the rules of thaumaturgy, External Power requires a sympathetic connection. What kind of person can be used to channel a Miracle? Would being a conduit to a Miracle change the nature of the person in the future? The way they act (probably increases their faith)?

I like where your head is at, but I sorta feel funny about trying to model Sponsored magic as a Thaumaturgic effect. 

[Mira]

I don't recommend spending too much time focusing on the real world definition of a saint: the main requirement is being dead. This whole topic sprung up due to a WoJ about Saints (+ mobs) vs. Blampire Elders. I'm assuming we're all working from the idea that the Saints are involved in fighting the Blampires before their death, no? Or, at the very least, up to the moment of their death...

My proposal: let's ignore labels for now. The question is, if TWG wanted to provide Divine Intervention to help take out someone like a Blampire, what would they need? Is TWG (and his organization) limited to only acting through the wielders of the Swords? Can they go beyond that? Per the rules of thaumaturgy, External Power requires a sympathetic connection. What kind of person can be used to channel a Miracle? Would being a conduit to a Miracle change the nature of the person in the future? The way they act (probably increases their faith)?

Well, we've seen that with only one person really, that would be Michael.   With or without a Sword, he seems to be all that you say..   Though according to both Michael and Father Forthill, Harry is close to fitting that mold as well, though he'd argue that he isn't even close..

[Quantus]

From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane.  By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.