What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[groinkick]

Ya, but people REAALLLLY want to know if Justin is Dead, like Really DED-dead, you know, as it "Ded-DEAD" dead-dead.  That's important too, right?

Or how Jim got into writing the Dresden Files...  I mean the story is great but it's explained in I think every one of these things.  Don't they watch youtube?  The story is told over and over and over again.

[Quantus]

Or how Jim got into writing the Dresden Files...  I mean the story is great but it's explained in I think every one of these things.  Don't they watch youtube?  The story is told over and over and over again.

To be fair, I myself have an irrational aversion to youtube and so rarely look at anything on it; Im being a grumpy old man on this with no conscious reason behind it, and Ive come to accept that.  So I cant get too mad at fans that havent done all the background research before they meet him in a Q&A.  It's a little easier here, where we have the WOJ section to get up to speed, but even here we love to regularly beat dead equines   

[RobReece]

This could work, lets chase that. 

When first introduced it was mentioned that "Michael didn't come down into the lab with me because the whole concept of using magic without the Almighty behind it didn't sit well with him, regardless of what we'd been through together".  I always thought this was an indication that Michael was entirely familiar with a farm of magic that /was/ more religious (as distinct from Harry views).  Now, when Michael prays to God it's always characterized as being the very simple, humble and direct sort of Prayer, just asking for help without a lot of ostentatious trappings.  And sometimes when he prays like that spectacular things happen. But other times he shouts Latin battle-cries and such to get the effects.  I submit that when he is using Latin phrases to channel power, he is casting a spell using magic words as mental insulation as per usual; it's likely at least as unconscious a process as the Alpha's transformation has supposedly become, but I think it's still Magic (Not sure if it's Life Energy or Faith Energy, or some blending).  By contrast I propose that those times he's prayed in the more simple way in English for a result we are seeing something qualitatively different, arguably the sort of "divine intervention" miracles that Saints are supposed to be able to request from on-high.    Thoughts?

Now here I would disagree with you, I don't think Michael ever "uses magic" or casts a spell.  There are times when his prayers are more dramatic and flashy and times when he's quiet and humble, but I think it's all based on his Faith that TWG is using him as a tool and the response, whatever shape that response comes in, is coming from on high.

[groinkick]

To be fair, I myself have an irrational aversion to youtube and so rarely look at anything on it; Im being a grumpy old man on this with no conscious reason behind it, and Ive come to accept that.  So I cant get too mad at fans that havent done all the background research before they meet him in a Q&A.  It's a little easier here, where we have the WOJ section to get up to speed, but even here we love to regularly beat dead equines 

I guess but as someone who likes new information to see like 25% or more of his time dedicated to stuff he's asked every time it gets annoying.  He's never around my neck of the woods so I can't ask them myself.

[Mira]

Now here I would disagree with you, I don't think Michael ever "uses magic" or casts a spell.  There are times when his prayers are more dramatic and flashy and times when he's quiet and humble, but I think it's all based on his Faith that TWG is using him as a tool and the response, whatever shape that response comes in, is coming from on high.

No, he doesn't, ever...  Nor would he ever call such a thing magic, as far as he is concerned he is merely an instrument of the Almighty...  As, by the way, any good saint would say..

As to the curse about the Loop, I imagine that St. Patric would say that it was merely punishment dealt out by the Almighty through him, he, himself had no such power..

[Quantus]

Now here I would disagree with you, I don't think Michael ever "uses magic" or casts a spell.  There are times when his prayers are more dramatic and flashy and times when he's quiet and humble, but I think it's all based on his Faith that TWG is using him as a tool and the response, whatever shape that response comes in, is coming from on high.

No, he doesn't, ever...  Nor would he ever call such a thing magic, as far as he is concerned he is merely an instrument of the Almighty...  As, by the way, any good saint would say..

I wouldnt disagree except for that particular quote, which has always confused me since it seems to very directly and explicitly state otherwise.

[groinkick]

When he was at Bianca's ball he used holy magic to harm the Red Court vampires.  He did this without the aid of his Sword.

"Iesu Domine!" (Jesus Dominates... I think)
Michael's voice rang out from beneath the vampires like a brass army bugle, and with a sudden explosion of pressure and unseen force, bodies flew back and up, away from him, flesh ripped and torn from them, hanging in raged, bloodless strips like cloth, showing gleaming, oily black flesh beneath.
"Domine!" Michael shouted, rising slewing gutted vamps off of him like a dog shakes off water
"Lava quod est sordium!" (Cleanse that which is unclean.... I think)


That's how I picture a Saint, except more powerful. 

[Quantus]

When he was at Bianca's ball he used holy magic to harm the Red Court vampires.  He did this without the aid of his Sword.

"Iesu Domine!" (Jesus Dominates... I think)
Michael's voice rang out from beneath the vampires like a brass army bugle, and with a sudden explosion of pressure and unseen force, bodies flew back and up, away from him, flesh ripped and torn from them, hanging in raged, bloodless strips like cloth, showing gleaming, oily black flesh beneath.
"Domine!" Michael shouted, rising slewing gutted vamps off of him like a dog shakes off water
"Lava quod est sordium!" (Cleanse that which is unclean.... I think)


That's how I picture a Saint, except more powerful.

See, that's how I picture a magic-user who's brand of magic is committed to the religious model (something I expect Butters to start exploring more and more, since he has both Bob and non of the same prejudice that early Michael did).   

The example of how I picture a Saint comes a little later on.  After all, saints are those that are suppose to have the Ear of Heaven, who can ask for things directly on our behalf. 

(click to show/hide)

I felt my heart clench in my chest and stop beating. I swayed on my feet, gasping. Michael got to me, Lydia slung over his shoulder in a fireman's carry. He'd torn his cloak off, and it lay to one side, burning. He dragged my arm across his shoulder, and half carried me down the stairs.

Smoke gathered on us, thick and choking. I coughed and retched, helpless. The magic coursed through me, slower now, a trickle-not because the floodgates had closed, but because I had nothing left to pour out. I hurt. Fire spread out from my heart, my arms and legs clenching and twitching. I couldn't get a breath, couldn't think, and I knew, somewhere amidst all that pain, that I was about to die.

"Lord!" Michael coughed. "Lord, I know that Harry hasn't always done what You would have done!" He staggered forward, carrying me, and the girl. "But he's a good man! He's fought against Your foes! He deserves better than to die here, Lord! So if you could be kind enough to show me how to get us out of here, I'd really appreciate it."

And then, abruptly, the smoke parted, and sweet, untainted air hit us in the face like a bucket of ice water.

I fell to the ground. Michael dropped the girl somewhere near me and tore the cheap tuxedo open. He laid his hand over my heart and let out a short cry. After that, I don't remember much more than pain, and a series of dull, hard thumps on my chest.

And then my heart lurched and began to beat again. The red haze of agony receded.

I looked up.

The smoke had parted in a tunnel, as though someone had shoved a glass tube of clean air through it and around us. At the far end of the tunnel stood a slender, willowy figure, tall, feminine. Something like wings spread out behind the figure, though that might have been an illusion, light falling on it from many angles, so that it was all shadow and color.

"I thought He wasn't so literal," I choked.

Michael drew back from me, his soot-stained face breaking into a brief smile. "Are you complaining?"

[Mira]

See, that's how I picture a magic-user who's brand of magic is committed to the religious model (something I expect Butters to start exploring more and more, since he has both Bob and non of the same prejudice that early Michael did).   

The example of how I picture a Saint comes a little later on.  After all, saints are those that are suppose to have the Ear of Heaven, who can ask for things directly on our behalf. 

(click to show/hide)

I seem to remember that Lea took credit for the parting of the smoke and their escape...  But then again she could be working with the Almighty as well..

[Quantus]

I seem to remember that Lea took credit for the parting of the smoke and their escape...  But then again she could be working with the Almighty as well..

Indeed she took credit for the parting smoke (fairly directly, too, for a fae) though obviously not the Lay On Hand restarting of Harry's heart after what some have argued was a Deathcurse.  Whether TWG was complicit in that is a matter of theology I suppose, when talking about an agency that works via coincidence most of the time it's hard to delineate.   Easy to say he might have arranged things so that Lea would be able to find them and open the tunnel in the smoke as a response to Michael's Prayer, and hard to disprove. 

(click to show/hide)

Too tired to argue, I let him haul me back to my feet. He picked up Lydia, and we staggered forward and out, to the figure at the tunnel's far end.

Lea. My faerie godmother.

We both drew up short. Michael fumbled for his knife, but it was gone.

Lea quirked one delicate brow at us. Her dress, still blue, unsoiled, flowed around her, and her silken mane matched the bloody fires consuming the courtyard. She looked almost good enough to drink, and she still held the black box Bianca had given her beneath one slender arm.

"Godmother," I said, startled.

"Well, fool? What are you waiting for. I took the trouble to show you a way to escape. Do it."

"You saved us?" I coughed.

She sighed and rolled her eyes. "Though it pains me in ways I could not explain, yes, child. How am I supposed to have you if I let this Red Court hussy kill you? Stars above, wizard, I thought you had better sense than this."

"You saved me. So you could get me."

"Not like this," Lea said, holding a silken cloth to her nose, delicately. "You're a husk, and I want the whole fruit. Go rest, child. We will speak again soon enough."

And then she withdrew and was gone.

[Mira]

Indeed she took credit for the parting smoke (fairly directly, too, for a fae) though obviously not the Lay On Hand restarting of Harry's heart after what some have argued was a Deathcurse.  Whether TWG was complicit in that is a matter of theology I suppose, when talking about an agency that works via coincidence most of the time it's hard to delineate.   Easy to say he might have arranged things so that Lea would be able to find them and open the tunnel in the smoke as a response to Michael's Prayer, and hard to disprove. 

(click to show/hide)

 Since Mab admits that she works with Uriel at times, well sort of, sometimes they have the same agenda, it could be..

[Quantus]

Since Mab admits that she works with Uriel at times, well sort of, sometimes they have the same agenda, it could be..

Not impossible, though I would imagine that colluding with Uriel would involve a little more direct interaction than with The Boss. 

[Mira]

Not impossible, though I would imagine that colluding with Uriel would involve a little more direct interaction than with The Boss.

Indeed,  supposedly He is the ultimate Boss of both Mab and Uriel..

[Quantus]

Indeed,  supposedly He is the ultimate Boss of both Mab and Uriel..

Oh, no not what I meant at all, just meant that Uriel seems to communicate directly (confirmed by Michael) while I dont see TWG bothering to actually communicate anything with her, s/he'd arrange things and omnisciently Know how she would react

[wyltok]

When he was at Bianca's ball he used holy magic to harm the Red Court vampires.  He did this without the aid of his Sword.

"Iesu Domine!" (Jesus Dominates... I think)
Michael's voice rang out from beneath the vampires like a brass army bugle, and with a sudden explosion of pressure and unseen force, bodies flew back and up, away from him, flesh ripped and torn from them, hanging in raged, bloodless strips like cloth, showing gleaming, oily black flesh beneath.
"Domine!" Michael shouted, rising slewing gutted vamps off of him like a dog shakes off water
"Lava quod est sordium!" (Cleanse that which is unclean.... I think)


That's how I picture a Saint, except more powerful. 

See, that's how I picture a magic-user who's brand of magic is committed to the religious model (something I expect Butters to start exploring more and more, since he has both Bob and non of the same prejudice that early Michael did).   

The example of how I picture a Saint comes a little later on.  After all, saints are those that are suppose to have the Ear of Heaven, who can ask for things directly on our behalf. 

(click to show/hide)

I'm not 100% certain that it's Michael that's shouting in Latin. Rather, I wouldn't be surprised if he's being moved by TWG, just like we've seen him do with other Knights. In fact, if asked what Michael meant by "[...] the concept of using magic [with] the Almighty behind it", that's exactly how I would define it: allowing yourself to be, for lack of a better term, possessed by TWG or an angel in order to serve as the focus for a Miracle. With that said, it probably comes as no surprise that I find myself thinking more and more that Michael probably is a Saint, given how many Miracles have been channeled through him rather than through the Sword.