On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans

[Rasins]

Okay, I've long held the belief that nemesis cannot infect a human.  Though why exactly I don't know.  I personally think it has to do with the mutable nature of mankind's nature.  I think Nemesis allows one to change one's nature, and since mankind already can, there really isn't any point to infection.

Another bit of evidence that suggests to me that nemesis cannot infect mankind is this ....

If it could, why would it not infect a Wizard, and have them simply summon outsider after outsider after outsider into reality until there is an overwhelming force?

[Tami Seven]

Question, were Lord Raith and/or Vittorio Nfected?

White Court are human enough to have a certain amount of Free Will. In theory, if humans are immune to being Nfected, they should be as well.

[Griffyn612]

Vitto was possessed by an Outsider, but Nemesis was not named.

Okay, I've long held the belief that nemesis cannot infect a human.  Though why exactly I don't know.  I personally think it has to do with the mutable nature of mankind's nature.  I think Nemesis allows one to change one's nature, and since mankind already can, there really isn't any point to infection.

Another bit of evidence that suggests to me that nemesis cannot infect mankind is this ....

If it could, why would it not infect a Wizard, and have them simply summon outsider after outsider after outsider into reality until there is an overwhelming force?

There were hundreds, if not thousands, of Outsiders attacking Demonreach in Cold Days.  They didn't just carpool in to reality.

We've seen exactly one Outsider summoning ritual, which utilized a death. If deaths are required, then it's no easy feat to do that on a mad scale and avoid the Council.

[groinkick]

Vitto was possessed by an Outsider, but Nemesis was not named.
There were hundreds, if not thousands, of Outsiders attacking Demonreach in Cold Days.  They didn't just carpool in to reality.

We've seen exactly one Outsider summoning ritual, which utilized a death. If deaths are required, then it's no easy feat to do that on a mad scale and avoid the Council.

I didn't read it the same as you.  I pictured a number of Outsiders, but more like in the dozens. 

[Anubissama]

I was on the "Nemesis can't infect mortals" wagons once, but the theory has one big problem. In *Cold Days* Maeve heavily implies that she is going to infect Justin to have an in with the White Court.

Justin being a mortal, so that suggest that Nemesis can infect humans. As to why Nemesis didn't do the Brute Force solution (just possess all of the humanity and literally Nuke the Outergates) I'm assuming there is a hard limit on how many beings Nemesis can infect at once, and that's what stops it from taking that approach.

[ClintACK]

If it could, why would it not infect a Wizard, and have them simply summon outsider after outsider after outsider into reality until there is an overwhelming force?

Because summoning requires Free Will - which is why it requires a human.

So you can't compel someone to do it, and a possessing spirit can't do it using a human meat suit.

You have to persuade an uncompelled/uninfected human to do it.

[Griffyn612]

I didn't read it the same as you.  I pictured a number of Outsiders, but more like in the dozens.

Harry guesstimated more before he even saw their full numbers. 

Things were swarming up out of the lake, hideous and fascinating—hundreds of them.

And if I read it correctly, this was only a portion of the attack force working with one of three barges.

[Mira]

But some of the Fae or actually many of the Fae began as changelings.. Mab herself admits to being human once, Molly is human and as time goes on she will become more Fae... We know in Proven Guilty that presumably Mab was treating herself along with Lea for possible infection..  So if humans are immune, are half humans immune?  Are Fae who once were human immune?

[peregrine]

Because summoning requires Free Will - which is why it requires a human.

So you can't compel someone to do it, and a possessing spirit can't do it using a human meat suit.

You have to persuade an uncompelled/uninfected human to do it.

Isn't one of the major dangers to the White Council the possibility that a wizard would be turned and then the Vampire Wizard would be able to open the doors to an outsider?

[forumghost]

Isn't one of the major dangers to the White Council the possibility that a wizard would be turned and then the Vampire Wizard would be able to open the doors to an outsider?

Nope.

"I thought only mortal magic could call up Outsiders," I said quietly.

Luccio said quietly, "You are correct."

It's what had everyone's cage rattled about it in-story- the Outsider Presence proved the Red's had Human Wizards in the Roster.

[peregrine]

Except that there's also a very specific quote talking about the dangers of having wizards turned by the Reds.  Maybe I'm thinking of the fact that they'd be privy to all the secrets and passwords and stuff of the White Council, but I was thinking the danger was also about the access to mortal magic.

[Anubissama]

There is an unspoken agreement between Wardens not to get captured alive by the Reds because once you are turned into a Red Court Vampire you lose your loyalty to the White Council (if it is just the fact that you turn in to a soulless monster or if there is some Sire-bond going on and the Red that turns you forces you to switch loyalties isn't specifically explained) and you will betray all the secrets you know.

As for magical abilities, it is also said directly that you retain them, but you get the vampiric/necromantic equivalent of it (Dresden describes the power source of Vampire magic as that similar to necromantic energies, un-life magic, where's mortal magic is based on life energy).

 If before you turned you could throw a lightning bolt with mortal magic, now you can throw a lightning bolt with necrotic magic. The effect is the same but on a metaphysical level it is like changing polarities and your magic does no longer count as mortal human magic, which is why the Outsiders showing up is such a big deal because it proves there are non-turned human Wizards supporting the Reds.

[Avernite]

There is an unspoken agreement between Wardens not to get captured alive by the Reds because once you are turned into a Red Court Vampire you lose your loyalty to the White Council (if it is just the fact that you turn in to a soulless monster or if there is some Sire-bond going on and the Red that turns you forces you to switch loyalties isn't specifically explained) and you will betray all the secrets you know.

As for magical abilities, it is also said directly that you retain them, but you get the vampiric/necromantic equivalent of it (Dresden describes the power source of Vampire magic as that similar to necromantic energies, un-life magic, where's mortal magic is based on life energy).

 If before you turned you could throw a lightning bolt with mortal magic, now you can throw a lightning bolt with necrotic magic. The effect is the same but on a metaphysical level it is like changing polarities and your magic does no longer count as mortal human magic, which is why the Outsiders showing up is such a big deal because it proves there are non-turned human Wizards supporting the Reds.

Of course with what we know now, I suspect a half-vampire like Martin would count as mortal-enough, and probably there would a magician or two among the servants of the literally damned Court.

[ClintACK]

Of course with what we know now, I suspect a half-vampire like Martin would count as mortal-enough, and probably there would a magician or two among the servants of the literally damned Court.

Good point.  And they'd have a long, long life to study magic.

[prince lotore]

I believe that nemesis doesnt affect humans because it cant hurt them.  What it does is remove all obligations from the fey. without those obligations the fey so far have gone insane.  good bad or indifferent the fey only act because of their obligations to what ever group they are with.  with that removed they completely loose it.