How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag

[Tiberius]

I don't have Grave Peril with me at the moment and it's been a while since I've read it, didn't Harry absorb some of the power of the spirits killed by the Reds?  If I remember correctly, it was only temporary, but wouldn't that have been along the lines of a dark hallow?  Improperly done as it was only temporary, but still in that type of power assumption?

And he ate Kravos, for a more permanent powerup.

[Quantus]

I don't have Grave Peril with me at the moment and it's been a while since I've read it, didn't Harry absorb some of the power of the spirits killed by the Reds?  If I remember correctly, it was only temporary, but wouldn't that have been along the lines of a dark hallow?  Improperly done as it was only temporary, but still in that type of power assumption?

Other direction, he poured power into /them/ which woke them up and gave them the strength to swarm the reds.  He did eat Kravos, it was mostly eating what the kravos ghost had previously stolen from him, though he did get some of kravos including one of the guys spells, though that was temporary by all indications.  Which fit the various incomplete bits we know of the difference between spirits/ghosts and souls, etc.

[knnn]

One of my longshot WAGs  is the you can eat ghosts to get a powerup, but it's only temporary unless you gobble up a bunch of "soul" to glue it together.

It's got to do with some hair-splitting interpretation of something Jim once said, explains why the Kravos powerup didn't last and gives a reason for why the Darkhallow in DB needed to be in the middle of a city.

[Quantus]

One of my longshot WAGs  is the you can eat ghosts to get a powerup, but it's only temporary unless you gobble up a bunch of "soul" to glue it together.

It's got to do with some hair-splitting interpretation of something Jim once said, explains why the Kravos powerup didn't last and gives a reason for why the Darkhallow in DB needed to be in the middle of a city.

Halloween also would play a role in the permanence of a Darkhallow Powerup, I would think.

[groinkick]

Halloween also would play a role in the permanence of a Darkhallow Powerup, I would think.

To swallow the Immortals it summons (because they cannot die unless it's Halloween).  My belief that he'd absorb the power of the combined thousands of sacrifices the Red Court performed to power the Blood Line curse would be a mini Dark Hallow.  He'd get a lot of power from it, but it wouldn't be a proper Dark Hallow that makes you a dark god.  Remember it's supposed to be something on par with becoming a Winter Knight and it's benefits.  Halloween wouldn't be a requirement under these circumstances.

[knnn]

Halloween also would play a role in the permanence of a Darkhallow Powerup, I would think.

Good point.

[Quantus]

To swallow the Immortals it summons (because they cannot die unless it's Halloween).  My belief that he'd absorb the power of the combined thousands of sacrifices the Red Court performed to power the Blood Line curse would be a mini Dark Hallow.  He'd get a lot of power from it, but it wouldn't be a proper Dark Hallow that makes you a dark god.  Remember it's supposed to be something on par with becoming a Winter Knight and it's benefits.  Halloween wouldn't be a requirement under these circumstances.

Im still pretty well convinced that only the spirits and mortals were in danger, not the immortals like the Erlking himself; all the descriptions have it being direct to the interplay of the human spirits and the human Life Energy being sucked out, afaict.  The erlkings presence was there to use the hunt to stir up more and older ghosts (using the exhibit CT had gathered to get the spirits in the area).   Besides, if the Darkhallow had put the Erlking in danger, wouldnt that have negated the Erlkings beef with Harry, or at least attracted the Hunt's attention enough for them to have joined Sue in some Zombie stomping?

[groinkick]

Im still pretty well convinced that only the spirits and mortals were in danger, not the immortals like the Erlking himself; all the descriptions have it being direct to the interplay of the human spirits and the human Life Energy being sucked out, afaict.  The erlkings presence was there to use the hunt to stir up more and older ghosts (using the exhibit CT had gathered to get the spirits in the area).   Besides, if the Darkhallow had put the Erlking in danger, wouldnt that have negated the Erlkings beef with Harry, or at least attracted the Hunt's attention enough for them to have joined Sue in some Zombie stomping?

I don't agree but that's just me

[Quantus]

I don't agree but that's just me

Ya, I've never been able to pull together enough evidence to definitely prove it (though I thought some of the CD revelations supported it), so it's still just another theory.

[groinkick]

Ya, I've never been able to pull together enough evidence to definitely prove it (though I thought some of the CD revelations supported it), so it's still just another theory.

The way I understood it that he'd consume the Erlking, and the hunt along with ghosts, and all the people who died as a result.  Swallowing a lot of ghosts would make you really powerful, but Mab describing him as a dark god the likes of which had never been witnessed by humans gave me the impression he'd probably be on par with Mab, if not more powerful...  I don't think ghosts alone could do that.

[Quantus]

The way I understood it that he'd consume the Erlking, and the hunt along with ghosts, and all the people who died as a result.  Swallowing a lot of ghosts would make you really powerful, but Mab describing him as a dark god the likes of which had never been witnessed by humans gave me the impression he'd probably be on par with Mab, if not more powerful...  I don't think ghosts alone could do that.

You arent alone in that impression, certainly, and it's been asked directly, after Darkhallowed-Cowl made the list of those that could take Mab in a straight fight:

5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some.  He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab.  I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual?  Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. 
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power?  That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.

[...]

why doesn't cowl do the darkhallow thing on a remote island or in the middle of the sahara desert or something...same with hag.  just a question that's been bothering me...
Cause you need people around to fuel the fire.    Had Cowl been successful, his ascension would have exterminated every source of life for several miles--and the more who died, the more elevated he would have become.  Think of them as a big old batch of human sacrifices.

The hag's ritual was a far more primitive version of Kemmler's rite, and wouldn't have done nearly as much for her as the Darkhallow would have for Cowl--but it still would have sparked off massive violence, plague, ill-fortune and general chaos for miles all around.

Some (my self-esteem doesnt want me to say most) take that to mean that the Erlking was one of the "supernatural beings", which I dont think jives with the rest fo the statements and descriptions.  I think he was there because he was good at/useful for stirring up mortal Hunter Spirits (which is how his role is described in the novel), and that it's the mortal spirits that get devoured along with the vacuumed Mortal Lives that get pulled out and provide additional power via the Sacrifice.  It's possible that the Erlking /was/ in danger and simply was confident in his own ability to escape (to the NN) if needed, but I dont read it that way myself. 

[Rasins]

Q - I have to agree that the Erlking was in danger.

The DH was going to be performed on Halloween.  The Erlking is an immortal with a Mantle/Mask.  We know they are vulnerable on Halloween.  I don't see why he'd be immune. 

[groinkick]

Q - I have to agree that the Erlking was in danger.

The DH was going to be performed on Halloween.  The Erlking is an immortal with a Mantle/Mask.  We know they are vulnerable on Halloween.  I don't see why he'd be immune.

Exactly.  Why would he be immune when everything in the area was going to die.  He was vulnerable on Halloween. 

Why didn't Bob mention it?  Two reasons.

1.  He was terrified to let it out that he knew how to kill an immortal, and Harry had to order it from him in Cold Days.

2.  Jim didn't want us to know that information until Cold Days.

So we got book cannon, and an author's reasons.

[Quantus]

Q - I have to agree that the Erlking was in danger.

The DH was going to be performed on Halloween.  The Erlking is an immortal with a Mantle/Mask.  We know they are vulnerable on Halloween.  I don't see why he'd be immune.

Wait, I see where we are talking Apples to Oranges here.  The Darkhallow was Eating Mortal Ghosts; that is what was fueling the Spell itself and what the Erlking was summoned to stir up.  The Erlking was not part of that.  However, he'd still be a being who's machinery runs on Life Energy, so he'd have to book it fast into the NN to avoid the Desolation Vacuum of Life that would immediately follow. 

Since the Vacuum is required for the Spell to work (because that's how Vacuum works) then it might just sound like semantics, but I see it as opposite sides of the Energy Balance.  Had the Erlking been in danger of being Eaten as part of the initial Pull-down stage then a)the Vacuum created would increase, and B) the necrogod that popped out the other side would have Absorbed an Immortal Mantle /already/ rather than having Created a whole new one from the mortal Spirits as described. 

So he might well be in danger of Dying from the Fallout.  I hadnt considered that too hard, I was discounting on the assumption that can pop in and out of the NN like Toot&Co and would have enough reaction-time to do so (which is not guaranteed by any means I admit).  But by all accounts the Darkhallow creates a New Mantle, it doenst need an existing one as a foundation or anything.  And if the Elrking did die from teh Fallout, his Mantle would pass to It's own Next in Line (a new Hunter? the Next Eldest of the Goblins?) rather than being subsumed into the Necrogod; In other words Erl was in Danger but his Mantle was not. 

[Rasins]

Q - I think there is a difference. 

I think you are right that the ErlKing was brought in to raise more hunter spirits to be eaten.

However, I believe that had it stuck around, he too would have been eaten, not just killed, by the darkhallow.  I think his power (and mantle) would have gone to the person who ate the DH.