Author Topic: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag  (Read 23854 times)

Offline Quantus

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2017, 08:35:24 PM »
Q - I think there is a difference. 

I think you are right that the ErlKing was brought in to raise more hunter spirits to be eaten.

However, I believe that had it stuck around, he too would have been eaten, not just killed, by the darkhallow.  I think his power (and mantle) would have gone to the person who ate the DH.
But then it's not a New Mantle.  It's just a Hostile Takeover of an existing one, with some extra Power as a Cheery on top.   
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Offline Rasins

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 02:12:38 PM »
But then it's not a New Mantle.  It's just a Hostile Takeover of an existing one, with some extra Power as a Cheery on top.

I'd say it depends on how  the transfer is made.  If the Erlking was killed on the stone table, would his mantle cease to exist?  As opposed to him being just killed on Halloween by ... say ... a bullet to the head.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2017, 02:50:32 PM »
Besides, if the Darkhallow had put the Erlking in danger, wouldnt that have negated the Erlkings beef with Harry, or at least attracted the Hunt's attention enough for them to have joined Sue in some Zombie stomping?

Are we sure the Erlking realizing what was going on after the fact didn't cause him to take it down a notch?

I mean, he is a Fae - he can't just entirely write off a grudge. But he found an excuse to give Harry an abeyance on acting on it, and then eventually "hunted" him in such a way as to actually help him. That's a pretty big switch from threatening to destroy Harry on the spot when he was initially trapped

Initially, Harry gave the Erlking a pretty poor explanation by saying that he'd trapped him to stop humans from suffering and dying, rather than that he was trying to interrupt freaking necromancers from summoning the Erlking elsewhere to eat his hunters and maybe him as well. I'm pretty sure the Erlking either figured out the bigger picture or was told by Mab by the time he came back and told Harry he would spare him that night.

Offline Rasins

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2017, 06:10:19 PM »
You know, I never even connected that The Erlking could have sensed the hunting Harry was doing, and in looking into that hunt, figured out that HE (the Erlking) was one of the targets of the Necromancer's hunt, and skedaddled.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2017, 06:13:46 PM »
But then it's not a New Mantle.  It's just a Hostile Takeover of an existing one, with some extra Power as a Cheery on top.

Good chance the Mantle wouldn't go to Harry but that any other forms of power he had would.  For example if he had been a powerful wizard before.  The Mantle may itself escape and find the next suitable host.

Also he ascended via a similar ritual.  Much of the power may be unbound, but only some of it is Mantle like.  Like Kringle, Vadderung.  Is Vadderung a Mantle?  I don't know but he's very powerful, and has a lot more free will.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 06:15:25 PM by groinkick »
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Offline Quantus

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2017, 06:46:58 PM »
Are we sure the Erlking realizing what was going on after the fact didn't cause him to take it down a notch?

I mean, he is a Fae - he can't just entirely write off a grudge. But he found an excuse to give Harry an abeyance on acting on it, and then eventually "hunted" him in such a way as to actually help him. That's a pretty big switch from threatening to destroy Harry on the spot when he was initially trapped

Initially, Harry gave the Erlking a pretty poor explanation by saying that he'd trapped him to stop humans from suffering and dying, rather than that he was trying to interrupt freaking necromancers from summoning the Erlking elsewhere to eat his hunters and maybe him as well. I'm pretty sure the Erlking either figured out the bigger picture or was told by Mab by the time he came back and told Harry he would spare him that night.
Worthwhile question.  He says in DB he's letting Harry go because harry's too beat up to be a fun hunt, and because Harry pleased him with the summoning of Sue (See spoiler below for exact phrasing).  Im not sure I see much wriggle room for a hidden "Thank you for saving my bacon", but what say you:

(click to show/hide)


I'd say it depends on how  the transfer is made.  If the Erlking was killed on the stone table, would his mantle cease to exist?  As opposed to him being just killed on Halloween by ... say ... a bullet to the head.
We're talking about the DB Darkhallow though, not the Table.  Regarding the Table there's a WOJ where he implies the table would indeed eat the mantle (of the Summer Knight, in that case) and give the other court it's /Power/ specifically, rather than the Mantle itself.  See below for exact (lightly frustrating) phrasing.
(click to show/hide)

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Offline Rasins

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2017, 03:52:59 PM »
We're talking about the DB Darkhallow though, not the Table.  Regarding the Table there's a WOJ where he implies the table would indeed eat the mantle (of the Summer Knight, in that case) and give the other court it's /Power/ specifically, rather than the Mantle itself.  See below for exact (lightly frustrating) phrasing.

Right.  I'm not arguing about the table. I'm saying we never saw the DH completed, and we really don't know what it does nor how it does it from a power transfer perspective. 
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Offline Quantus

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2017, 12:20:47 PM »
Right.  I'm not arguing about the table. I'm saying we never saw the DH completed, and we really don't know what it does nor how it does it from a power transfer perspective.
Oh, well in that case I disagree since we have several WOJ's describing it. 
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Offline Rasins

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2017, 06:26:50 PM »
Oh, well in that case I disagree since we have several WOJ's describing it. 

We have WOJ's describing how the Dark Hallow works?
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Offline Quantus

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2017, 08:51:56 PM »
We have WOJ's describing how the Dark Hallow works?
Sure.  We have these two:

Quote
5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some.  He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab.  I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual?  Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place.  :)

For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power?  That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.

Quote
Why doesn't cowl do the darkhallow thing on a remote island or in the middle of the sahara desert or something...same with hag.  just a question that's been bothering me...
Cause you need people around to fuel the fire.  :)  Had Cowl been successful, his ascension would have exterminated every source of life for several miles--and the more who died, the more elevated he would have become.  Think of them as a big old batch of human sacrifices.

The hag's ritual was a far more primitive version of Kemmler's rite, and wouldn't have done nearly as much for her as the Darkhallow would have for Cowl--but it still would have sparked off massive violence, plague, ill-fortune and general chaos for miles all around.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2017, 01:45:26 PM »
So, I'm a little confused.

Does the power from the spirits go to the one who eats the DH, or the power of the deaths, or both?

And IS the Earlking a Mantle, or an ascension that gave power and he's kept it?  What I mean is that is "Earlking" a Mantle, or a title.  And he has a power, but is it a cohesive mantle, or just, like Harry, an source of power?
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Offline Quantus

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2017, 02:06:39 PM »
So, I'm a little confused.

Does the power from the spirits go to the one who eats the DH, or the power of the deaths, or both?
Best interpreation I have is to consider a Darkhallow to be like holding a straw with the top plugged by your thumb; the "Power" that actually gets eaten is the Water (the Ghosts, all Necromantic energy), and the Life that gets drawn out by the resulting Vacuum is the Air that you release with your thumb to let that water fall out.  The Air/Life is filling a void left behind by the Necromantic ghost energies that got consumed, but the amount of Life/Air available to fill that void directly limits how much Water/Necromantic energy can Move (ie get consumed) in the first place, as both things happen together.  So you stir up whatever arbitrary number of ghosts you can, because that's where the Power comes from; and that part is made easier by having a thin/weakened Border and also if you have powerful NN creatures with Ghost Summoning capabilities.   But if you dont set your proverbial Dinner Table in a place that has an equivalent amount of Life Energy floating around you to fill in the space as you draw it down, you wont be able to swallow. 

Quote
And IS the Earlking a Mantle, or an ascension that gave power and he's kept it?  What I mean is that is "Earlking" a Mantle, or a title.  And he has a power, but is it a cohesive mantle, or just, like Harry, an source of power?
I am as confident as I can be that he's a Mantle without having a direct WOJ that uses the term.  But he's always described as a Peer to Mab (in a way that does not mean Power levels) and a direct counterpart of Kringle who /is/ specifically a Mantle.  We know per WOJ that Eldest is an important and common Mantle, so I dont know if the Erlking is defined as the Eldest Goblin, or if it's perhaps a Hunter Spirit mantle that happens to reside in a goblin king currently. 
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Offline Rasins

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2017, 02:46:47 PM »
Okay, I like the straw analogy.  That makes sense.

The part that confuses me then, if the Erlking is present, his power would be consumed, but he's alive, so ... there's a contradiction there.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2017, 09:13:54 PM »
Okay, I like the straw analogy.  That makes sense.

The part that confuses me then, if the Erlking is present, his power would be consumed, but he's alive, so ... there's a contradiction there.
His Power would /not/ be consumed, is my point.  He personally might be Killed, but that's not the same thing.  Maeve was Killed, but her Power, her Mantle, simply moved on to the next host unharmed.  If his power were Consumed, the Mantle itself would be destroyed/subsumed into the new Necro-Mantle.
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Offline Bakoro

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Re: How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2017, 09:08:45 AM »
Jeez people, I know Jim likes to play tricksy Sidhe "gotcha" games, but sometimes we just have to take the words for what they actually say.   
     
Jim explicitly says that the more lives that would have been sacrificed, the more power the caster would receive. All the life energy not protected by necrotic magic would have been consumed. All the ghosts would have been consumed, all the lives of all the people, the flowers, and bugs, in the city would have been consumed, and if the Erlking was around, he would have been consumed too, along with all his power (which by itself would have been enough to make an new Immortal). The Erlking wasn't consumed by the Darkhallow because the Darkhallow was interrupted before it could go off (hence Chicago not being a giant cemetery in the books). Maeve's mantle didn't get destroyed when Maeve died because that mantle is it's own magical construct, a discrete thing that exists beyond any one person, and there wasn't any necro-vortex trying to eat it at the moment. 
       
We know that Halloween is when Immortals grab power from each other. That's part of the whole Dresdenverse origin of "Halloween" as we know it.  On Halloween, the Erlking was mutable and could have his power partially or wholly consumed, or even be killed. If he has a mantle, as in a magical construct that sits on top of him like the WK mantle sits on Harry, then even that would have been wholly consumed added to the new Immortal's power. That's the whoooooole point of all this "mutable on Halloween" business. If it wasn't like that, then there'd be virtually no point in adding in that particular detail, especially in bringing up the Darkhallow specifically. Jim could have and probably would have left it at "Immortals can die on Halloween". 
Quote
   
“Halloween is when they feed,” Bob said. “Or . . . or refuel. Or run free. It’s all sort of the same thing, and I’m only conveying a small part of it. Halloween night is when the locked stasis of immortality becomes malleable. They take in energy—and it’s when they can add new power to their mantle. Mostly they steal tiny bits of it from other immortals.”   
“Those Kemmlerite freaks and their Darkhallow,” I breathed. “That was Halloween night.”   
“Exactly!” Bob said. “That ritual was supposed to turn one of them into an immortal. And the same rule applies—that’s the only night of the year it actually can happen.
   
   
I'm just not sure how much clearer it can get without Jim himself coming in a laying it out bare one way or another. Maybe someone can ask him at the next Q&A he does.   
     
This is something that's been tossed around for years now. People are freaking obsessed with mantles. Everything's a mantle now, everybody's got a mantle.   
Not every "mantle" is a discrete magical construct like the Queens and Knight have that hops from one vessel to the next. Immortals have a mantle of immortality that's it, I don't see anything that says it *has* to zip onto someone new, the Queens' mantles do that because it's part of what they are, they're cosmically important.   
       
Sometimes the "mantle" is just like, an idea, basically, like being the "leader".   
Being a leader doesn't give you an explicit personal power boost like you can all of a sudden lift heavy objects over your head. What it does do is give you power, because other people might follow your orders when you tell them to help you lift heavy objects. When a leader is gone, sometimes someone takes up the role, sometimes the group itself is dismantled (pun totally intended). There seems to be a mighty fine line between things that are just ideas in people's heads, and things that are actually magic, I recognize that, but the line is there.
   
Erlking is an immortal, he has the "mantle" of immortality, but there's nothing that says he has a "mantle" like Vadderung has Santa, or that it's something that will get passed along when he dies. His power might just die along with him and disperse like a body turns into dust, ready to be used in creating something new. Nothing says that when Vadderung stops being Santa, that the mantle goes to someone else, it might not even exist outside the realm of ideas.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 09:16:54 AM by Bakoro »