Nemesis is different

[Rasins]

I'm still of the opinion that since there exists a gate, that means that the outsiders can come in.  Obviously we are trying to keep them out, but still it's possible.

[ClintACK]

One reason I think Nemesis is connected to Wizards is because it reminds me a lot of like what Molly did to her boyfriend when she mind controlled him.  Not only did she control him but the end result of such control is insanity of the person being controlled.  The way it "spreads" is like a wizard creating a conduit between himself and the one they want to control.  That first link was the Athame, provided by Cowl and the Black Council.  Nemesis didn't just start controlling people, it needs a connection of some kind.  Again this sounds a lot like a wizard to me or group of them. 

The more I think about it the more I think that the Black Council is a group of spell casters that create a link between themselves and their target, and working together overpower the mind, and bend to their will...  Nemesis, the Adversary are actually a cult of dark wizards who's goal is to become the rulers of reality.  Perhaps Merlin created the White Council because of the Black Council.  That could mean the Black Council has existed before the White Council...

I like this idea.  It consolidates two of our mysterious behind-the-scenes enemies (BC and Nem) into one.

Lots of interesting questions come out of this:

• Cowl's "end death" sales pitch... was that just tailored for Kumori, or is there more to it?  (See: Dr. Strange's villains who want to end death by making a bargain with Dormamu...)
  
• What would an Outsider victory really look like?  (And what do the conspirators think it would look like? What do the members of the Circle/Black Council/"Nemesis" want?)
  
• Why is it so dangerous to speak the word?  Is it like the Merlin's fear of acknowledging the Black Council's existence?  (That many wizards and sorcerers would join the "rebellion" if they knew of it, without knowing the full story?)
  
• Why haven't they tried directly to recruit Harry?  (Or *DID* they -- was Kumori's approach a first attempt at this?  Is that why Cowl left Harry alive in DB?)
  
• Which side is Nicodemus on?  Does he support the conspiracy or oppose it?? 
  

[agrabes]

I'm still of the opinion that since there exists a gate, that means that the outsiders can come in.  Obviously we are trying to keep them out, but still it's possible.

I would say it's not that it's impossible for them to come in.  I agree, having a gate suggests that it is possible.  But rather than what is possible, I'm talking about what has actually happened and makes sense to have happened in the context of what we know so far.  It's implied in the books that the Outsiders have been trying to come in for essentially all of eternity and so far they have never been successful.  Yes, they can cross over for a limited amount of time if specifically summoned and through whatever method Nemesis uses to infect people, but they can't just slip in and out on their own volition.

Regarding the Oblivion War, I don't think that once some kind of being has been sent to "Oblivion" they go to the Outside.  I think they cease to exist entirely, beyond all ability to come back.  That seems to be the entire premise of the Oblivion War: make sure that evil beings which are already gone and mostly forgotten become entirely forgotten so that they cease to exist.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I keep on being reminded of the pah wraiths from DS9, they needed a special book to escape from their prison. But instead the prophets managed to destroy it, and imprison their avatar/representative in the fire caves for ever. So I think while nemesis represents a way in for the outsiders, it is also potentially a way to permantly bar them from entry.

[dspringer1]

Personal opinion that the outsiders are alien to this reality -- and see to destroy it.  (kudo agrabes who said it first).

Agree with Quantus that the Outsiders can be summoned into this reality by wizards. 

The fact that the outsiders are fighting at the outer gates implies strongly that they have the ability to enter our reality on their own, but are blocked by the Winter court fey/outer gates.   

Nemesis is a outsider "power".   I think the "He who walks..." types are generals or at least commanders of some type.  Nemesis is probably something more like an infiltrator or corruptor as opposed to a general.   In Denarian terms, one more like Andurial or Lasiel as opposed to Magog.    I suspect Nemesis is considerably more powerful than the "he who walk" types - and perhaps one of the great powers in the Outsider leadership.    Nemfection might be a new avenue of attack, but I suspect the theme of corruption and infiltration is the domain of Nemesis for a very long time. 

[jonas]

The adversary is the position, Nemesis is just the current holder. so even if she goes to the wayside, someone else will step it up. Interesting to me is the devil's role as the adversary being a dignitary in heavens court before his fall. this coincides with the cabbalistic view, that when the devil stopped being our dark mirror, his wife Lilith took over the role.
I connect goddess Nemesis as the current actual Nemesis(can say the adversary but can't say Nemesis cause it attracts her attention) and being highly connected to the missing sister in the trio. It might not even be her fault! when White Christ did what he did and changed the order of fate to freedom of will she had no standing in our reality anymore. Her literal job was to choose and decide and play peoples (and gods) lives like a story. Looking at previous incarnations of the fates and how they operated(by using magic to set the way) vs druidic magic, having the ability to effect elements but not fate itself, I see a fundamental change that had taken place and drastically changed the way reality was run.
Nemesis is nothing more than an ousted employee working for a rival company.

[Bakoro]

He Who Walks Before said he was the Gate Breaker. He's the one that leads a frontal assault.   
He Who Walks Behind is an assassin.   
Nemesis is like a combination of a spy and saboteur. 
   
It's a war, and the Outsiders, even though they are totally whacked out, are conducting it like any war. Considering the whole of *Cold Days*, I think it's clear that Nemesis is one of the Outsiders, that's why GK was scanning the injured at the Gate, and he said even he couldn't be totally sure someone was clean. It's just, very apparent that it's from Outside, and it'd be a pretty big fudge at this point to make it otherwise. 


The Outsiders look all jacked up because they probably have to assume some kind of corporeal form just so they can interact with the spiritual/material realms. I think that's part of what the deep hatred is all about, they see our ordered existence as an affront, and just the fact that we exists causes them to also exist apart from their idyllic chaos.
   
The Outsiders are completely separate from anything Inside, the books and Jim have been about as clear as these things get without just unwrapping every bit of mystery. Outsiders are from Outside everything we know, the material of the Outside kills anything it touches, no one is just going to waltz Outside. 
   

There seems to be conflation between old gods and Outsiders, especially with the Oblivion War. I think if the Oblivion war *primarily* had to do with the Outsiders, Jim would have mentioned that, or otherwise not mentioned it at all and done the "I'm not going to tell you" song.   
The Oblivion War is a nice backstory Jim added to the Archive, who was initially going to be a throwaway character. The beings that the Archive is trying to get rid of seem to be things more similar to the necro-god that Cowl et al were trying to become. That is, a load of power without purpose, just beings that got themselves all hopped-up on Power, and maybe some creatures from deep in the NN. 
   
I'm on board with "Oblivion" just being a place inaccessible to the normal flow of things, but still not "Outside". In fact I don't think it Oblivion a "place", it's more like, they cease to exist in any manner that can act, only existing in the "mind" and "memory" of the universe itself. Jim said that Mab and the Sidhe were in danger of Oblivion until she tapped the Brother Grimm.   
   
The Outsiders want to destroy the universe, I doubt anyone from Inside really wants that to happen. They might want to rule the universe, might want to turn it into something else, but they still want it to be here. If you want to take anything Dresden's said to heart, it's the "Mab's a monster, but she's our monster" part, the part about playing for the home team. 
   
At the same time since it needs to be mortal magic that summons Outsiders, I could certainly see her also making every effort to keep written records about Outsiders are destroyed. I just also think that they are separate things. The books say that the Outsiders teach people about magic and stuff, I don't see how the Oblivion War could be very effective when any summoned outsider would probably be like "By the way, can I talk to you about our dark lord and savior H'Gthudfrmmr?". And then boom, the Outsider god has an anchor.

[jonas]

The Outsiders look all jacked up because they probably have to assume some kind of corporeal form just so they can interact with the spiritual/material realms.

interestingly they look like Lovecraft outsiders, I think due to the common 'belief' that that's what things outside reality look like. Just like Fearbringer pulled his mask together from disparate things that cause fear. its hidden in how the fetches become something more than a mask, but the thing itself. Imo at one point when Jotenheim was what was considered beyond the known universe, outsiders were ice giants.

[Bakoro]

interestingly they look like Lovecraft outsiders, I think due to the common 'belief' that that's what things outside reality look like. Just like Fearbringer pulled his mask together from disparate things that cause fear. its hidden in how the fetches become something more than a mask, but the thing itself. Imo at one point when Jotenheim was what was considered beyond the known universe, outsiders were ice giants. 

 
   
I think the common belief is that the Ice Giants were to the Norse Gods what Summer is to Winter (or vice versa). 

It was only the Eldest Fetch that became more than the mask, something about him was more "real" than the other Fetches:

This thing was no fetch, no changer of form and image and illusion. There was no shadowy mask over an amorphous form, no glamour altering its appearance, which my salve would have enabled me to see through. This thing was a whole, independent creature. Unless maybe it was a fetch so old and strong that it could transform itself into the Scarecrow in truth and not simply in seeming.

   
   
In the DF, Lovecraft was writing about the actual Outsiders, so it's not that he influenced people, he was first inspired by them.
HWWBefore might have drawn on the collective human psyche to get form, but overall I think Outsiders look jacked up because, where things on the Inside have a form that follows function, the Outsiders just cobble together whatever hot mess will work for the time being to get to the murderizing.   
Like the Names of the Outsiders, and the Outer Gates themselves, the form people see just takes on whatever their mind can handle, so, you're probably at least partially right about them taking the form of whatever the viewer sees as fearful, but also it'd be whatever is most alien.   

[jonas]

I think the common belief is that the Ice Giants were to the Norse Gods what Summer is to Winter (or vice versa). 

It was only the Eldest Fetch that became more than the mask, something about him was more "real" than the other Fetches:

The Norse already had two distinct and opposing groups of gods, the Vanir and the Aesir. Really its Odin who drops the clue bat, His people lost purpose when the jotuns 'retreated'.
Eldest 'became' more after eating Molly, whole other reasoning behind that, but that's just what the fetches do. Its not about the fetches, its an explaination of how masks/mantles are formulated. JB does this a lot, something used that also explains how the laws of reality work in the DF or another situation not directly inherent to the direct story. Multiple layers depending on what your looking at.

[Quantus]

I'm still of the opinion that since there exists a gate, that means that the outsiders can come in.  Obviously we are trying to keep them out, but still it's possible.

Oh, I certainly agree with that, I meant the only /other/ way than Hammering through the Universe's Border directly. 

Though the fact that so much of the Gate Defenses rely on Mortals, both in the general sense of the Fae being uniquely half-mortal and in the specific case of the mortal Gatekeeper as the lynchpin of the defenses, makes me think that the Gates are another example of Delegated/Chained Choices.  Technically, the Gates are being defended my the Forces of Mortality; the fact that there's a lot of other fae stuff in the mix does not negate that, especially since (in theory) every incremental evolutionary step of the Fae would have being crafted by a series of Free Will Choices by individual mortals.  The fact that those choices led to whole Races of fae being born and then drafted into eternal service doesnt stop it from being entirely built on mortal Choices.  Does that make sense?

[Rasins]

Yeah, it does.  Consequences of what my ancestors decided still effect me today.

I wonder though, if someone was to start a belief and somehow made it flourish, that there was a being that could totally wipe out Outsiders, if that being were to attempt it, the Outsiders would just "invent" another opponent that could withstand this new outsider-bane.

Kind of like the idea that a super-hero has to have a super-villain to fight against.  Otherwise there is no need for them, really.

[Quantus]

Yeah, it does.  Consequences of what my ancestors decided still effect me today.

I wonder though, if someone was to start a belief and somehow made it flourish, that there was a being that could totally wipe out Outsiders, if that being were to attempt it, the Outsiders would just "invent" another opponent that could withstand this new outsider-bane.

Kind of like the idea that a super-hero has to have a super-villain to fight against.  Otherwise there is no need for them, really.

Interesting Idea.  I think that there would need to be some preexisitng basis to build on (per the Mothers Power cannot be /Created/ or Destroyed) as opposed to being able to Imagine something with Power that Absolute from nothing. 

[Rasins]

I don't know ...

Jim is doing a pretty good job of it now.

[Quantus]

I don't know ...

Jim is doing a pretty good job of it now.

?