My first character for review

[Sanctaphrax]

As far as I can tell, any Sponsor is not free to revoke access to their power arbitrarily or at will. They have leeway to impose sanctions and restrictions if the character does go into debt, or directly tries to damage them or their agenda. But otherwise the gift of power, once given, cannot be revoked. The character paid for it with whatever Refresh represents, after all.

By YS287, every spell must align with the agenda of the sponsor. If that agenda no longer has a place for you in it, the GM should give you your Refresh back.

Losing Powers isn't really covered by the rules, so you could call the Refresh refund a houserule, but I think it's kind of a no-brainer.

Bear in mind, by the way, that characters don't really buy things with Refresh. Players do. Refresh isn't real in-story, except as a very loose representation of how much freedom someone's got.

Forgive me it's been a long time since i looked at that part of the rules, How does Soulfire Work mechanically?  By the novels I'd expect it to be different than standard Sponsored magic, since you have to provide it fuel (as opposed to Hellfire).  Similarly I'd expect Heaven, more than most Sponsors, to be able to be bound by the consequences of their own Choice to grant the Power.  On the Other hand, they are pretty quick to revoke Sword of the Cross power, so can a Soulfire Wielder "Fall" like an angel can if they abuse their granted power?

Ive always wondered:  Does the gift of Soul-fire make you a Saint?

Sainthood is a specific Catholic institution. And you have to die to become one. So no to the last question.

Paranet Papers updated the Soulfire rules. Now, instead of debt, you get an extra stress track that you can draw on for a little extra power. The lack of debt is part of what makes me think that they can't revoke Soulfire.

That being said, I vaguely recall a WoJ that Hellfire and Soulfire are different takes on the same thing. So maybe your Soulfire will become Hellfire if you become a sufficiently bad person.

[Wanderer]

I've rewritten the OP character builds according to thread discussion (including a more concise skill list).

By YS287, every spell must align with the agenda of the sponsor. If that agenda no longer has a place for you in it, the GM should give you your Refresh back.

I suppose so, although I'd expect the GM to be broad-minded and flexible about fitting the character in the agenda of the sponsor. The individual spell might or might not fit, and the GM should certainly make the character (and the player) sweat if they go into debt, but I assume pretty much nothing less of directly and purposefully acting against the agenda of the sponsor (as the character and player understand it) should allow the sponsor to cut off the character for good.

The agendas of Summer, Winter, Heaven, Hell, and Death (to quote all the established major Powers that bestow SM in canon) seem so broad and vast it should be easy for most characters that are willing to deal with such powers to find a place in them. Moreover, as we said, it is even doubtful the Archangels are able to withdraw access to Soulfire in the first place, and I'm just as doubtful there is any identifiable sapient agent that manages access to Kemmlerian Necromancy. As far as I know, only a few pagan Gods, such as the Norse ones, have been established in the setting as sapient and active Powers with an agenda that may bestow their own version of SM, but the features of the latter have not been established in the rules. As far as I can tell, a Sponsor should not have leeway to cut off access to SM at will or otherwise bully or coerce them if the character is 'in the clear' with them (no standing debt, power is not used in a way contrary to the sponsor's agenda).

Losing Powers isn't really covered by the rules, so you could call the Refresh refund a houserule, but I think it's kind of a no-brainer.

Full agreement here.

Bear in mind, by the way, that characters don't really buy things with Refresh. Players do. Refresh isn't real in-story, except as a very loose representation of how much freedom someone's got.

Yeah, although as you know I have my own reasons to be radically hostile to the notion Refresh is in any way related to free will. I very much prefer to interpret it as a measure of the character's potential for mystical/physical/mental greatness (depending on whether we deal with supernatural powers or mortal stunts) at any given stage of their existence. If you wish, a potential for self-development, rather than free will. 

Sainthood is a specific Catholic institution. And you have to die to become one. So no to the last question.

Paranet Papers updated the Soulfire rules. Now, instead of debt, you get an extra stress track that you can draw on for a little extra power. The lack of debt is part of what makes me think that they can't revoke Soulfire.

That being said, I vaguely recall a WoJ that Hellfire and Soulfire are different takes on the same thing. So maybe your Soulfire will become Hellfire if you become a sufficiently bad person.

Yeah, although I suppose the poster also wished to know if a saintly disposition would be a prerequisite for having Soulfire. If we take Harry as an example, I'd say certainly not. Otherwise I'd be unable to give Soulfire to my character. He's an anime-style anti-heroic character that has his own nobility and may often end up saving the day or doing the right thing for various reasons, but he's no moral paragon by the conventional Abrahamic definition. He's irreligious, arrogant, lecherous, quick to anger and violence, and greedy for (being the best at) mystical power and martial skill. Although he's not much interested in mundane wealth or social influence, nor he is especially vain, envious, gluttonous, lazy (if anything the opposite), or prone to despair (ditto), if we go by the traditional sin classification.

[Taran]

In regards to actions that do not align with a sponsor:  it's easily covered with compels.  If you want to do something with sponsored magic that doesn't meet with the agenda, it simply won't work.  Here's a FP, you can't use it for this scene.

If you have a FP , your sponsor gives you a pass, but if you can't  afford to pay it off, then you are out of luck. 

Not sure the best way to dealing with revoking powers.  If you are doing things against your sponsors agenda enough that you are getting lots of compels, it probably means something is happening in the game, story-wise,  that will justify droppping it at a milestone.

[Wanderer]

In regards to actions that so not align with a sponsor:  it's easily covered with compels.  If you want to do something with sponsored magic that doesn't meet with the agenda, it simply won't work.  Here's a FP, you can't use it for this scene.

If you have a FP , your sponsor gives you a pass, but if you can't  afford to pay it off, then you are out of luck. 

Not sure the best way to dealing with revoking powers.  If you are doing things against your sponsors agenda enough that you are getting lots of compels, it probably means something is happening in the game, story-wise,  that will justify droppping it at a milestone.

These seem quite reasonable guidelines to play SM with. As it concerns my character, I did try to develop his personality so there would be no blatant incompability at first glance with the agendas of the Powers I picked as sponsors. I did not regard Kemmlerian Necromancy as a viable option since I find the ghost-summoning and zombie-raising parts of necromancy unappealing magic feats to RP. As it concerns the cursing and destruction components, which do appeal to me, there is nothing KN does in this regard which Unseelie Magic and/or Hellfire do not do just as well or better. The only part of KN that might have serious interest for me is the possibility to use psychomancy as Evothaum. But then again, a magic specialization in necromancy seems a prerequisite for unlocking the power, and I dislike RP being especially interested in trafficking with dead stuff.

[Wanderer]

I made a few other adjustments. Despite my dislike of dependence on magical items, I realized I might as well fill the free focus item slots (but nothing more, I'm not going to invest refresh in item slots). According to character concept and my playstyle preferences any magical items of his are supposed to be few in number, easy to conceal, and hard to lose. I also decided to make an exception at the highest power-level build, raise Refresh threshold a bit, and give him an Item of Power just to round up his Supernatural physical abilities. Of course, this is supposed to be temporary, a training device until he can internalize these powers thanks to his changeling concept.

The pyramid system forced me to invest points in a few skills with limited value for the concept, but on second thoughts I realized among them the character perhaps has just a bit more use for Weapons than Scholarship, so I reshuffled points accordingly. The character is heavily focused on magical abilties, martial arts, and mystical expertise, and has a mandatory low-tech lifestyle, so he probably has limited use for extensive mundane knowledge, with the possible exception of administering first aid. But the latter would require the Doctor stunt to be truly useful, and the character needs all the refresh he can afford for supernatural powers. Besides, one version of the character can easily and quickly do healing magic by means of sponsored magic, and the other is supposed to be mystically focused on destructive abilities.

I also realized the character might not have that much use for high Resources, due to his mandatory low-tech lifestyle, but I do not have a better use for those points. Almost all the mundane equipment he's able to use is freely available at Average expenses or lower. Being lecherous and focused on his magical and martial skills, I assume he probably spends most of his extra cash offstage on dating, martial-arts training, occult research and rituals, and traveling (assuming he doesn't use the Nevernever, which he probably does to some extent, given his high Lore and ties to Faerie and other Powers). I suppose he might invest his money into a decent Arcane Sanctum and/or Arcane Library, but given his independent mindset and trouble with tech, he's likely committed to a semi-nomadic lifestyle, living in hotels and rented apartments, if not on the road. Given his very high Lore, he probably carries the vast majority of his occult expertise in his head and his ritual tools in a backpack.

[Wanderer]

For reference, at the moment I'm using the following power level scale, which I modified from the one found in the 'New Power Levels' thread. I'm not entirely satisfied with the names and their sequence, but I'm creatively challenged about this kind of stuff.

Submerged 10 35 Superb
Below the Surface 11 35 Superb
Bottom Of The Pool 12 40 Superb
Snorkeling 13 45 Superb
With The Fishes 14 45 Superb
SCUBA Diving 15 50 Fantastic
Big Fish, Bigger Ocean 16 50 Fantastic
Punched a Shark in the Nose 17 55 Fantastic
Wish I Had A Submarine 18 60 Fantastic
I Spy Atlantis 19 60 Fantastic
Swimming In Weeds 20 70 Fantastic
In A Submarine 21 70 Fantastic
Look, Spanish Gold 22 70 Fantastic

[Quantus]

Sainthood is a specific Catholic institution. And you have to die to become one. So no to the last question.

I thought so too, but there is an old WOJ that they were/are active (presumably living) Powers that are sometimes present to defend Mortals.  And it's listed separately but in the same sentence as the KotC, so that alone doesnt qualify.  There's also one the mentions St George specifically as the guy that wiped out most of the lesser dragons, indicating it's a real/corporeal thing. 

Though as far as I can tell, in general the idea behind Cannonization is that these people were always Saints by the Grace of God, and all the rest of the process is just the Church identifying, confirming, and recognizing those that were already Saints.  So I think the implication is that they were Saints in Life, and that the church can simply rarely identify these people ahead of death.  Supposedly most Saints go unremarked by the Church and will only become Known at the Second Coming. 

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4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world.  And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city).  Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon. Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts.  *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.

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St George the Dragonslayer[/url]]

2009 WoJ forum post:
6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast.  It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos.  He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment.  He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession.  There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.

Paranet Papers updated the Soulfire rules. Now, instead of debt, you get an extra stress track that you can draw on for a little extra power. The lack of debt is part of what makes me think that they can't revoke Soulfire.

That being said, I vaguely recall a WoJ that Hellfire and Soulfire are different takes on the same thing. So maybe your Soulfire will become Hellfire if you become a sufficiently bad person.

Cool thanks.  I havent spent near the time with the PP rules, and with Accelerated now I may never dig into them properly.

Here's the WOJ.  It says the kind of /angel/ one is determines the which of the two you'd use, but Im not sure that translates to a mortal that has been given access to one or the other, I think you'd be locked to the nature of whatever Angel granted you the access in the first place.  The Shadow's presence is what granted Harry access to Hellfire which went away when the Shadow did (per Bob in WN), but I dont think any amount of independent redemption, etc on Harry's part could have turned that Hellfire access into Soulfire.  You might be able to Fall from Soulfire to Hellfire, going in that direction is traditionally much easier.

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#259 “Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”
Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are. (Emphasis added)

[Wanderer]

I made a few other adjustments, to include suggestions in the other thread. Now the character is a biker too.