Multiple Sponsored Magic

[Wanderer]

Let's say I may be interested in playing a sorcerer or wizard character that in addition to Evocation and Thaumaturgy, has access to multiple types of Sponsored Magic. Interesting options that seem thematically appropriate might be a combination of Seelie Magic and Soulfire (say a Seelie changeling sorcerer that did a favor to an Archangel), or of Unseelie Magic and Hellfire (say an Unseelie Knight wizard that got a Denarian shadow). I do not take Kemmlerian Necromancy into serious account as an option simply because I find necromancy of little interest, except perhaps as it concerns its cursing and destructive applications, but it might easily be an option for others. Would this be a wasteful or worthwhile use of refresh points? How is a character going to deal with having multiple sponsors?

[Sanctaphrax]

Refresh-wise, it's really expensive. Even at Submerged, one Sponsor will max out a Wizard's Refresh budget. And while I wouldn't call it wasteful to have multiple Sponsors, there is an issue of diminishing returns. If you're concerned with Refresh efficiency, that might be a problem.

The roleplaying implications really depend on who the Sponsors are. In general, though, the biggest issue is conflicting demands. If Mab wants you to do X, and your Denarian shadow wants you to do Y, you'll have problems. Problems similar to the ones Harry has in the novels, actually.

[Wanderer]

Refresh-wise, it's really expensive. Even at Submerged, one Sponsor will max out a Wizard's Refresh budget. And while I wouldn't call it wasteful to have multiple Sponsors, there is an issue of diminishing returns. If you're concerned with Refresh efficiency, that might be a problem.

Well, I have already planned extending the canon power level scale all the way to 20-21 refresh for PC, also picking ideas for this houserule from this very board (cfr. the New Power Levels thread in the Resource Collection, which I'm thankful for as inspiration). So the refresh cost is not a real problem for me, unless the enterprise looks really wasteful. I'm already aware this kind of character concept would need at least about 15-18 refresh to be developed adequately, from my first character-creation attempts.

The roleplaying implications really depend on who the Sponsors are. In general, though, the biggest issue is conflicting demands. If Mab wants you to do X, and your Denarian shadow wants you to do Y, you'll have problems. Problems similar to the ones Harry has in the novels, actually.

Yeah. Since I read in OW and PP Harry came very close to being an Unseelie Knight Wizard with a Denarian shadow, and apparently managed it to pull it off with little more trouble than his usual 'interesting times all the time' lifestyle, I assumed it would be sometimes troublesome but doable and probably worthwhile. That's what actually inspired me to try this kind of concept in the first place (I can't just decide if the Seelie-Soulfire option or the Unseelie-Hellfire one is better/cooler, they equally appeal to me for different reasons), although I thought of swapping the Faerie Knight part of the concept with a Sidhe Changeling one, in order not to deal with the issue of the singularity of the Knight position (although I'm much in favor of having multiple Knights in a setting).

By the way, how much contact with a coin does a character need to develop a Denarian shadow? I thought of Half-Sidhe Sorcerer/Wizard as the High Concept for this kind of character, but I'm uncertain how to word stuff like having a Denarian shadow in it (or other Aspects). And what would conceivably justify getting Soulfire?

[Sanctaphrax]

By the way, how much contact with a coin does a character need to develop a Denarian shadow? I thought of Half-Sidhe Sorcerer/Wizard as the High Concept for this kind of character, but I'm uncertain how to word stuff like having a Denarian shadow in it (or other Aspects). And what would conceivably justify getting Soulfire?

I'm probably not the best person to ask. But I think just touching the coin is enough to get a shadow. And I think wizards get soulfire when angels decide, for whatever reason, that they should have it.

For the Aspect, the obvious approach is often appropriate. SHADOW OF <DENARIAN> is a perfectly respectable Aspect.

[khadgar4606]

speaking of denarian shadows can you resurect or ascend lash again via some dresden class shenanigans

[blackstaff67]

I hereby advise to tread carefully with the house rules and powers.  They have not been playtested for balance and some of them may be gamebreakers (sad voice of experience here).  The Stunts seem to be okay and I'm okay with the vast majority of them. 

Welcome to the boards and good gaming!

[Sanctaphrax]

I hereby advise to tread carefully with the house rules and powers.  They have not been playtested for balance and some of them may be gamebreakers (sad voice of experience here).

Bit off topic, but...which Powers and rules do you have in mind here?

[blackstaff67]

Rather depends on how many players he has, but I feel that Intellectus of War is a no-go for me; given the high Refresh level of the OP's campaign, not only will that PC have five (!) skills at a +7 or +8, that PC will be able to automatically place Aspects on things without so much as  die-roll.  If the group has only two or three other players, it might work, but in a larger group, I have found the character tends to steal the spotlight from other players. 

IoW was made before many other powers and stunts came about--before the Wikia Resource page, if memory serves--and it was made as an alternative to Sponsored Magic.   
OTOH, it's a splendid power for an NPC Plot Device to have. 

But that's me and my table and my sad experience.  Maybe if the group is only 2-3 players and everyone's running on demigod status (the 20+ Refresh level of the OP), then it might work. 

Full disclosure: I prefer to run lower Refresh games and my attempt at a higher one ended in disaster; I hereby confess to a 'once bitten, twice shy' approach to some powers and that one in particular.

P.S. (Addendum) Rebate powers are also out for me.  For my table, I simply removed the discount for the sussing out difficulty so that Supernatural Toughness/Recovery always costs at least -2. 

[Wanderer]

speaking of denarian shadows can you resurect or ascend lash again via some dresden class shenanigans

Since Denarian shadows are psychic constructs, and minds/brains are supposed to have some redundancy capability for memories, I suppose the right way to resurrect a destroyed one would be to use some high-level psychomancy ritual to rebuild a copy from the fragments still surviving in the depths of the host mind's unconscious. Kinda like a program to restore erased data. Either that or going back in time to recover it before it got destroyed.

[Wanderer]

I hereby advise to tread carefully with the house rules and powers.  They have not been playtested for balance and some of them may be gamebreakers (sad voice of experience here).  The Stunts seem to be okay and I'm okay with the vast majority of them. 

Understood, but I assume this would not be a real issue with new power levels. I have planned an extension up to 20-21 Refresh and 70 Skill points. From what I can tell, the system and setting have plenty of room for playstyle at that level, and the setting has many NPC much stronger and more powerful than that.

[Sanctaphrax]

Understood, but I assume this would not be a real issue with new power levels. I have planned an extension up to 20-21 Refresh and 70 Skill points. From what I can tell, the system and setting have plenty of room for playstyle at that level, and the setting has many NPC much stronger and more powerful than that.

The setting has many NPCs with tons of Refresh and skill points, but it doesn't have many with sky-high skill caps. Usually an NPC with a huge pile of skill points has a whole lot of skills at Fair or Good.

You're going by what's in the New Power Levels thread, right? If you are, and you want to stay faithful-ish to the novels, I would recommend raising the skill floor to Average instead of raising the skill cap to Epic. Maybe also reduce the skill point count a bit, since a higher floor is effectively a huge number of free points.

[Wanderer]

The setting has many NPCs with tons of Refresh and skill points, but it doesn't have many with sky-high skill caps. Usually an NPC with a huge pile of skill points has a whole lot of skills at Fair or Good.

Indeed. Now, my main motivation to extend the power levels scale up to doubling its reach is to provide a serious boost to the refresh points pool if wished, since too little of that constraints character creation too severely for my tastes. There are far too many valid and interesting character concepts, including the one being discussed in this very thread, that simply can't be done effectively or at all with 10 refresh. Expanding the skill points pool by a comparable amount is a nice secondary benefit that should be done to some important degree to keep things balanced between powers and skills, since they are often supposed to be complementary. In comparison, exceedingly high skill caps aren't anywhere that important or useful for my tastes, although I think an extension to unlock Fantastic may be appropriate past a certain point. 

You're going by what's in the New Power Levels thread, right? If you are, and you want to stay faithful-ish to the novels, I would recommend raising the skill floor to Average instead of raising the skill cap to Epic. Maybe also reduce the skill point count a bit, since a higher floor is effectively a huge number of free points.

Indeed I'm going to use the scale in the New Power Level thread, with a few minor tweaks, such as changing a few names and extending it just a bit past 20 Refresh. I have no problem with limiting the raise of the skill cap to Fantastic even for the highest levels of the scale. However at first glance I'd rather keep the skill points pool at 70 for the highest levels rather than raising the skill floor to Average b/c it seems to me the latter would worsen one of the problems of the skill pyramid system. I loathe narrow ability niches and specializations, especially if the game system tries to make them any mandatory, and I'm usually sympathetic to generalist and hybrid-archetype character concepts to some serious degree, but everything has limits.

I really dislike how past a point the pyramid system may force you at high power levels to sink points into skills that are alien and contrary to the character concept, useless even as possible backups, and/or a distraction. If the character has been optimized in terms of powers and skills for magical and unarmed combat (already giving them a backup method), there is no point at all to make them any proficient in guns or melee weapons just to keep the base of the pyramid large enough. If the concept includes the character being horrible with technology, driving, or the fine arts, one should not be forced to put points in the associated skills for the same reason. Since I'm always in favor of high-powered playstyle regardless of game system, I'm usually enthusiastically supportive of free points regardless of reason, and nothing stops me from combining the two approaches but the above issue makes me a little hesitant to embrace the raised skill floor idea. I need to think more about it, and the skill pyramid system is an headache and half to puzzle out and manage as it stands. 

[Blackmako]

"Rather depends on how many players he has, but I feel that Intellectus of War is a no-go for me; given the high Refresh level of the OP's campaign, not only will that PC have five (!) skills at a +7 or +8, that PC will be able to automatically place Aspects on things without so much as  die-roll.  If the group has only two or three other players, it might work, but in a larger group, I have found the character tends to steal the spotlight from other players. 

IoW was made before many other powers and stunts came about--before the Wikia Resource page, if memory serves--and it was made as an alternative to Sponsored Magic.
OTOH, it's a splendid power for an NPC Plot Device to have. "

Your mileage may vary with multiple sponsored magics. Judge your table and what they enjoy. It boils down to what is fun for the table and the GM together.

 The game Blackstaff referenced is still going strong and has grown into a 9 person game that breaks up into smaller groups for small missions and then meets as a large group as all the missions tie together. In fact it is now a multi-state Dresden group. As Blackstaff mentioned he stays with low level. The large sized party wanted a high refresh game.  As one of the four GMs that traded off running that group it no longer fit Blackstaff's vision. The group wanted an epic adventure.  The group did not want a dynamic where the GM is antagonistic to the players.

Three of the GMs wanted to take the Dresden stories and grow past them. Sometimes the players make low refresh characters for one off stories where their main PCs are distant NPCs. The story has been going strong for over four years now. So one answer is know your group and what they like. GMs at times need to flex to what the group wants. The resource page has been a gold mine of creative ideas.

As a GM its not all that hard to balance out a party that is high refresh. As the group scales high the conflict scales high. From experience with this group what challenges them the most is the relationships between party members and how their strongly held aspects run into plot. Within their area of expertise they reign supreme. They win, lose, and draw like rock, paper, and scissor. Concessions happen frequently as a scene may call upon something the character wont do. For instance an 18 refresh wizard has a couple of sponsored magics. One of his sponsored magics came from the resource page about the horseman of war. His character died (later was brought back a bit broken) not by violence but by sacrifice for another character in jeopardy to bring peace while a horseman of war. The whole game was built on the premise of greek tragedies and the hero having a tragic flaw that brings them down.

"But that's me and my table and my sad experience.  Maybe if the group is only 2-3 players and everyone's running on demigod status (the 20+ Refresh level of the OP), then it might work. 

Full disclosure: I prefer to run lower Refresh games and my attempt at a higher one ended in disaster; I hereby confess to a 'once bitten, twice shy' approach to some powers and that one in particular."

What this poster does not mention that it did not end in disaster for the group. Game still meets on a bi-weekly basis. The resources page as well as this forum serve as a gold mine of great ideas for the group. The group has now grown to six GMs taking turns. Its about making great collectively created stories as a group.

[Blackmako]

Wanderer I am not a fan of the pyramid system for the same reason. It's especially bothersome at high refresh skill levels. The powers/stunts kept characters unique. There is so much overlap between characters due to skills.

[Sanctaphrax]

Your quote's a bit messed up, Blackmako.

I really dislike how past a point the pyramid system may force you at high power levels to sink points into skills that are alien and contrary to the character concept, useless even as possible backups, and/or a distraction.

That's actually one of the benefits of a raised floor!

At the normal PC levels, you'll basically never have to buy skills contrary to your concept. A full Submerged pyramid only includes 13-15 different skills, after all.

But if you've got 70 skill points and a Fantastic cap, the minimum number of different skills you can buy is 22. Going to 50 skill points with an Average floor and a Fantastic cap reduces that minimum number to 18. Makes for an overall more capable character, but one with fewer specific skill investments.