How do Veils work?

[Ace of Space]

Background: First time DFRPG GM, have read YS, OW, and the novels. Memory is fuzzy about most of the novels, though.

Have a single player (wife), who has made a fox-fae (aka Kitsune) changeling at Feet-in-the-Water power level. Powers are Claws and Glamours. Also, an Aikido stunt that gives her +2 Defense with Fists vs stronger foes.

There is very little info on veils (or glamours) in YS. Can they be used in combat (aka Predator-mode)? If so, then it seems that fae would use it constantly. I don't remember that happening in the novels. Yet the rules don't forbid it. Seems OP. Maybe treated as an aspect that lets the caster defend with Deceit or Discipline instead of Athletics? Thoughts?

Any other tips for a n00b GM with a single, feet-in-the-water PC?

[Sanctaphrax]

The rules aren't super clear on this point. I cooked up some houserules for my own game, which you're obviously welcome to use if you want.

The gist is basically this: you can use veils in combat, but only as a normal block. Not much different from a shield. I think that works with the novels, the rules, and the world; it's an option, but not one everyone's gonna use all the time.

Incidentally, I think Our World is a bit too generous with the Glamours Power. But that's beside the point.

As for general advice, I'll quote myself from another thread:

Try to keep the game moving. There are ambiguous rules in the book and plenty of judgement calls to be made (especially when Aspects are getting used heavily). In both cases, making a workable decision quickly is better than stopping the game to get things exactly right.

Custom Powers can be tricky balance-wise. And the game works fine without them. Might be best to avoid them until you've found your footing. If you want recommendations, though, here are mine.

Custom Stunts, on the other hand, are a good idea for everyone. I really don't recommend sticking to the book list.

Rebate Powers are abusable. Don't go too wild with them.

Thaumaturgy is balanced mostly by the understanding that the GM is keeping an eye on it.

Feeding Dependency and Demonic Co-Pilot are probably best avoided.

Compel often. It's easy to Compel too little and hard to Compel too much. Keep the points flowing and the problems plentiful.

If your players start showing initiative and driving the plot, embrace it. Not just a DFRPG thing, but especially a DFRPG thing.

[Ace of Space]

Thanks! Love your houserules.

[Taran]

Lots of people also just use the rule that as soon as you do something obvious, it breaks stealth. I had some rules about stealth and veils somewhere too.  I'll post them when I find them

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, the rules aren't especially clear. In my groups, we take the "veils are a block against perception" to mean that before any physical action taken against someone under a veil, the attacker has to make some kind of perception roll (usually Alertness or Investigation) and if they can't beat the veil, they can't directly target the person under the veil.

Zone-wide attacks, of course, can still hit, and you can do maneuvers or invoke aspects to get around it, but otherwise, you can't hit what you can't see. Also the veil would drop if you did something obvious, like decking someone or firing off an offensive spell.

My group felt this way fit best with how veils are used in the books, and maintained the rulebooks' statement that veils are special.

Another alternate that I proposed back in a long and, uh, contentious thread about veils was that you could also treat it as a reverse ambush -- if you fail the perception roll, you can still make a targeted attack, but you'll be rolling from 0, since you're firing blind.

[Taran]

I proposed back in a long and, uh, contentious thread about veils

...yeah, some stubborn person kept arguing with you....fortunately I've that person has grown and realized there's a multitude of ways to adjudicate the same scenario.

Which brings me to my personal house-rule!  Which I wrote up a while ago and only got semi-used.

Out of Combat:  Veil vs Alertness/Investigation(as normal)

In Combat:
 Assuming a character knows you are there when you veil:
Example: Enemy's turn vs a 4 shift veil:
Awareness declaration(free action):  "He just went invisible and he was standing RIGHT THERE!" 
       -Veiled person defends against the declaration with althletics (to not be "RIGHT THERE")
Assuming the declaration succeeds character has 2 options:
      1. use the declaration to make a FREE awareness check(invoke for effect) to break the block. 
         -If he succeeds, he can attack and not face a block.
         -If he fails he can still attack but his attack is hampered by a 4 shift block** (veiled person can use his dodge or the block for defense - whichever is higher). If the creature succeeds in his attack,  the block will still be present in the next exchange (assuming veil is extended or a glamour)
      2. Use the declaration to get a +2 to make an assessment AS AN ACTION.  In this case, the creature cannot attack, but has a better chance at destroying the veil.
**This assumes the enemy is attacking in the correct zone.  IF not the attack auto-fails.

So, basically, if you can't perceive them and you don't know they're there, you can't attack at all.  But if you know where they are, the veil helps against attacks.  It's similar to having a degrading veil except that the opposition can build up aspects every round because, any time you do something offensive which brings attention to yourself, the opposition can make a declaration about that action.  They can tag them to see through the veil.