Author Topic: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted  (Read 3362 times)

Offline blackstaff67

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Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« on: December 17, 2016, 06:19:51 PM »
Since there's some fair argument that wizards can be instakill (and I've seen the evidence in my last session), I've decided to nerf them a wee bit:

1) Limiting foci bonuses to a wizard's Lore, with Evocation and Thaumaturgy bonuses tracked separately.
1a) Two full shifts of success translates into one extra damage shift instead on the usual 'one for one.'  I've decided this also applies to enchanted items.   This does not apply to Thaumaturgic rituals (but does apply to Evothaum).

Given how simple it is for a wizard to place even fragile Aspects upon himself to 'tag' later for an alpha strike, I do not believe these house rules are especially tough.  Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

For the record, my game has just reached 11 Refresh/37 skill points stage for the players, so it's still rather 'young.'  Takes place between books Four and Five (I've also allowed 'vanilla' mortals to raise skill caps above +5 before paranormals do, just for the sake of balance. 
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Offline Taran

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 10:00:50 PM »
Quote
Two full shifts of success translates into one extra damage shift instead on the usual 'one for one.'  I've decided this also applies to enchanted items.   This does not apply to Thaumaturgic rituals (but does apply to Evothaum).

You mean, every shift of power=1 shift of weapon damage.  Not Shifts of success...

Thaumaturgy doesn't have weapon values on spells.  Arguably, Evothaum doesn't have weapon value either.

Please let me know how capping the Lore works for you.  We do it in our game and I haven't noticed much of a change, but I haven't spec'd my character out for maximum damage.  IE, I haven't taken a lot of refinements and boosted control to an insane amount.

You should be wary of aspects to make sure they're not cheap.  On the other hand, using up mental stress to create an aspect doesn't sound that powerful.  What you should do is this:  if it's fragile, tell them they need to tag it by their next turn, otherwise it dissipates.  This prevents them from stacking piles of aspects and tagging them all at once.  That said, it doesn't cost much more power to make it sticky, so I don't see how that will impact anything.

What kinds of aspects are they creating?  Remember that 3 is a baseline.  Some aspects may be harder to create and others might be easier to do by using a mundane skill.  I'd use the same rules for any skill.  If it would be a 5 athletics roll to create an aspect, it should be a power 5 air spell to create the same thing.

Don't allow zone-wide maneuvers on enemies.  Only allow Scene aspects.  If they want to target multiple enemies with a maneuver, have the use spray rules.

Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 02:16:10 AM »
Clarification:  When rolling to hit with Evocation spell or Enchanted items, every two full shifts of success translates into only one shift of damage.  Example:  Wizard rolls to hit with a Weapon:3 attack, opponent's defensive roll is poor and the wizard wins by +3.  This would translate into  and succeeds in striking three (3) shifts of damage plus only +1 extra shift of damage/effect for a total of four shifts of damage. 

Regarding Aspects, I was thinking of placing Aspects upon yourself with Discipline (Aspect: Icy Control) or Conviction (Aspect: Gathering in my powers), but agree such Aspects ought to be used quickly (within the next few exchanges, maybe, by however much they succeeded by?).  A Lore Aspect such as purpose-built charm bracelet or face-painted runes (Aspect: Sigils of Power) I'd allow for the whole scene and be tagged for free once, but require FP's thereafter.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2016, 04:24:40 AM »
I'm not a fan of that change. It makes the basic combat system more complicated, which is best avoided. Plus it devalues Aspect invocations.

Back in 2012 I had a thread about ways to weaken spellcasting.

Personally, I favour changes that make the system simpler. Like removing rotes.

Limiting total focus benefits for a type of spellcasting to (Lore) seems like a decent idea. Ought to be similar in effect to allowing one focus per spell, which is a houserule I like for people who have trouble with excessively specialized casters.

PS: What specific event or ability led you to look for nerfs?

Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 05:57:17 AM »
Last session I had the group was fighting some baddies.  Group was a shapechanging Foo-hound, a Jade Court Vampire (I liked teh guy's take on it, so I allowed it), two wizards and a vanilla mortal (ex-Marine sniper).  Despite the fact the relative inexperience of the wizard players, they did a remarkable job of making bad guys go splat faster than anyone else.

That said, they also ran out of juice and a lack of defensive items led them to be put down by other baddies in the same fight--the Foo-hound and JCV with a solid assist from the sniper, saved the day. 

Thanks for the link, I've bookmarked it to read some more!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 05:59:45 AM by blackstaff67 »
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 07:12:55 AM »
If they got taken out and the other PCs didn't, do they really need a nerf?

Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 09:41:35 AM »
Sounds like exactly how it's supposed to work, give or take.

How does the table feel about it?
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Offline Nepene

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2016, 10:18:15 AM »
Yeah. The wizards may be sad if they get taken out easily in combat and are useless at fighting, while the other people are killing lots of people and surviving.

Offline potestas

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2016, 05:26:06 PM »
i dont see the need to nerf them. The game revolves around the power of wizards. They start out insanely strong that's the point of the game. The focus has to be on getting around objects instead of going through them. Politics and agreements really powerful wizards have in place, the accords all this has to be brought into play. Piss of the wrong wizard and he starts manipulating events behind the scenes to make everything the offending wizard does more difficult. That can affect the game in a lot of ways reduced successes explained as resistance the player wizard wasn't aware of. its high handed but eventually it could lead to a story that helps players understand they aren't the only big fish in the lake and the time for using all your abilities is only in the most dire of circumstances. And there is still the fact that magic and the magic world is a secret. Some people are aware most aren't dresden is an anomaly and if not for his early patronage and raw power would have been brought to heel. Wizards need to focus on working in secret or "resistance you didn't realize was there can  start affecting the outcome of rolls and effect. Remember how blackstaff used his magic to block Marvas magic to allow Harry's group to have some success. Same thing can be used against wizards who insist on overly overt use of power. Magic is still a secret and wizards aren't superheros.

Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Nerfing wizards, advice wanted
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2016, 09:17:34 PM »
Sounds like exactly how it's supposed to work, give or take.

How does the table feel about it?
You know, I think that's exactly the next question I'm going to pose to the group.
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