When Winter took over at the Outer Gates [Spoilers all, including the DFARPG]

[Quantus]

Seems reasonable except for one thing.  The Mother doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen prior to being established in that position.  At first inception they needed someone/thing to install in the position.  Doesn't mean that person/being was in any position of power/authority that could be called "Queen".  Sort of like creating a new kingdom, some guy takes power and calls himself king, - or gets appointed king by his battle companions... doesn't mean he had to be a prince before hand.  Nit picky, I understand, but...

I think you're missing the point--the positions are explicitly referred to as: The Queen that Was, the Queen that Is and the Queen that Will Be. Why would the Mother be the Queen that Was if she never, well, Was? I agree that she doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen to be the original Mother, but this represents an in-universe oddity if there is no explanation for why the Queens are referred to in this way in Summer Knight. There's a qualitative difference between that and the relationship of a Prince to a King in a Kingdom's hierarchy.

What CloakedDestiny said.  It is specifically the "Queen that Was" bit that seems significant, especially since we are talking about a race that it seems the Universe itself wont allow to Lie.


An alternative that might satisfy it is if she were a Queen of something, but simply not previously a Fae queen.  For example, one of her names is Skuld, which can either be the historic character of the youngest of the triplet Norns (norse Fates) and a Valkyrie, or else Skuld the heroic princess that become the queen of Denmark. 

[Lawgiver]

I think you're missing the point--the positions are explicitly referred to as: The Queen that Was, the Queen that Is and the Queen that Will Be. Why would the Mother be the Queen that Was if she never, well, Was? I agree that she doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen to be the original Mother, but this represents an in-universe oddity if there is no explanation for why the Queens are referred to in this way in Summer Knight. There's a qualitative difference between that and the relationship of a Prince to a King in a Kingdom's hierarchy.

True enough, perhaps it was a bad analogy.  Think, then of the US.  When it was first created Washington became the first President.  There were none before him.  He wasn't VP and take over later, etc.  The requisite to have been Queen before being Mother -- the requirement to have been a Queen before being mother might have been created along with the posts themselves with an exception written in for the post's first occupant.

Given the Names of who we believe some of the previous Powers were who went into making up the Sidhe royalty, perhaps their previous incarnations satisfied the requirement from the getgo somehow, I don't know.  I just don't see those level of Powers waiting in the wings for centuries or even millennia after their composition into their current form before they could start doing their Job.  That's the sort of Power level that needs to be activated on a high priority basis, not laid on a shelf for umpteen years before being used.

I'm just unsure about when the Fae Courts became what they are and don't find the evidence given being compelling enough to say that Mab and Titania both got their current jobs at the same time the Fae became Guardians.  Guardianship could have predated it. We just don't have enough to strongly point either way.

If the proposal is accurate, though, I have a question...
Since the Nordics were apparently in charge of the Gates, what entity in their group - most particularly assignable as an equivalent of Winter Queen, would have "died" (or some supernatural parallel) to have opened the slot for Mab to fill?  Anyone have good candidates among either the classic Nordic pantheon, the Jotan "elites" or some associated group that might been the previous "Queen" Mab took over for?

[Quantus]

Given the Names of who we believe some of the previous Powers were who went into making up the Sidhe royalty, perhaps their previous incarnations satisfied the requirement from the getgo somehow, I don't know. I just don't see those level of Powers waiting in the wings for centuries or even millennia after their composition into their current form before they could start doing their Job.  That's the sort of Power level that needs to be activated on a high priority basis, not laid on a shelf for umpteen years before being used.

Huh?  What do you mean by that part?

If the proposal is accurate, though, I have a question...
Since the Nordics were apparently in charge of the Gates, what entity in their group - most particularly assignable as an equivalent of Winter Queen, would have "died" (or some supernatural parallel) to have opened the slot for Mab to fill?  Anyone have good candidates among either the classic Nordic pantheon, the Jotan "elites" or some associated group that might been the previous "Queen" Mab took over for?

First thing that comes to mind is Hecate.  But if we are talking Norse, I propose it would have been Heimdall who just happens to also be the Archangel Rafael, since both are prophesied to Blow a Trumpet to herald the End of Days/Twilight of the Gods/Revelation/Ragnarok/Apocalypse.  Who knows, maybe they bled an Archangel's Grace out on the Stone Table.

[Foxed]

Two things: this is an interesting theory. I myself had placed the Jotun as the defenders at the Gate and the Aesir as the protectors from the defenders. That is to say, that Odin was replaced by TITANIA, not Mab. My thinking was that the Aesir cut a deal with the Tuatha de Denaan and the triune goddess. With faith in these pagans waning, there was an imbalance between Aesir and Jotun. By combining the Fae with the mother goddess, there was enough power to defeat the Jotun, but the power gained by the Gate responsibilities forced the triune goddess to split into two. That, plus pinning their power to a cyclical, scientific phenomenon, created a pretty solid balance.

So I think there was no Winter Court before they became the defenders. Just Mother (Unknown, but dead now), Maiden (Mab), and Crone (Mother Winter).

Second, some posters are misinterpreting the Hades/Satan thing. Hades is the ruler of his domain. The CEO. Satan is an Officer. He has a board he needs to answer to (... Legion?). that's the difference.

[Quantus]

Side note on this Aesir/Jotun branch of the conversation: Jotun and the Aesir/Vanir are often equated to the Titans vs Olypian gods on the greek side.  TO what degree do you guys think that is the case in TDF?  As in, do you see a qualitative difference between Aesir and Olympians, or between Jotun and Titans?

[Foxed]

I think it would be mostly a balance thing. Gods versus monsters. Aesir versus Jotun. Olympians versus Titans. Heaven versus Hell. Summer versus Winter.

[wardenferry419]

Titania had twins?  As in Aurora had a sister?  Who-wha?!?  That will be very significant for my prediction-crafting...

Is there any WOJ about Aurora having twin ? That would make symmetry of Fae Queens fit better.

[Quantus]

Is there any WOJ about Aurora having twin ? That would make symmetry of Fae Queens fit better.

Not any that Ive heard about.  There is one that Maeve and Sarissa are biological twins, and that Mab and Titania are as well, but that's about it for the family tree (other than the hint that Maeve/Sarissa's dad was an Austrian composer that Died young). 

Makes me Wonder is Mother Summer is Mab and Titania's biological Mother...

[Lawgiver]

Huh?  What do you mean by that part?

When Hecate and whoever else were combined to make the current Fae Courts, I don't think the Mothers, Queens and Ladies would have just stood around doing nothing, waiting for their turn at the helm of Guardianship.  That much power isn't put into one place for the purpose of letting it sit fallow. I'm thinking that when those positions were created they were put into use immediately.  So... if there was a Queen before Mab, and the current Winter Mother is the original, they had to have been in place as Guardians before the current Mab ascended to being Queen, who know for how long.

I just don't see the proposition that the Fae becoming Guardians and Mab moving from Lady to Queen as necessarily being the same event.

[Quantus]

When Hecate and whoever else were combined to make the current Fae Courts, I don't think the Mothers, Queens and Ladies would have just stood around doing nothing, waiting for their turn at the helm of Guardianship.  That much power isn't put into one place for the purpose of letting it sit fallow. I'm thinking that when those positions were created they were put into use immediately.  So... if there was a Queen before Mab, and the current Winter Mother is the original, they had to have been in place as Guardians before the current Mab ascended to being Queen, who know for how long.

Im still lost...What Time?  What Waiting?  I thought we were talking about either they (Hecate, etc) consolidating power and Creating the two Maiden/Mother/Crone sets fresh right then, or else giving the consolidated Power a pre-existing, far less powerful "Summer" and "Winter" wyldfae Courts with a freshly minted new Purpose.  Im not seeing any circumstance where waiting would even be possible.

[Lawgiver]

Im still lost...What Time?  What Waiting?  I thought we were talking about either they (Hecate, etc) consolidating power and Creating the two Maiden/Mother/Crone sets fresh right then, or else giving the consolidated Power a pre-existing, far less powerful "Summer" and "Winter" wyldfae Courts with a freshly minted new Purpose.  Im not seeing any circumstance where waiting would even be possible.

Never mind.

[Quantus]

Never mind.

 I think the assumption Im making that is causing the disconnect is that when Hecate &Co combined Power to create the Modern courts, the Guardianship itself was part of that mix of Power that got move/reformed.  I dont think you could have that tier of Power without it's Purpose going right along with it; they'd be two parts of the same ball of wax Yarn (ill go with "Ball of Yarn" since the moirai are in there).  So, by that assumption at least, there'd be no way for them to become Empowered to current levels without immediately taking up the Guardianship.  Does that make sense?

[Lawgiver]

I think the assumption Im making that is causing the disconnect is that when Hecate &Co combined Power to create the Modern courts, the Guardianship itself was part of that mix of Power that got move/reformed.  I dont think you could have that tier of Power without it's Purpose going right along with it; they'd be two parts of the same ball of wax Yarn (ill go with "Ball of Yarn" since the moirai are in there).  So, by that assumption at least, there'd be no way for them to become Empowered to current levels without immediately taking up the Guardianship.  Does that make sense?

Follow mostly what I've been trying to get across... that the Powers that made up the Sidhe royalty wouldn't have just stood around doing nothing once they were "created".  Combine that with current Mab having been Lady and it shows those Powers were in place before Mab ascended to Queen, and thus were already Guardians prior to Hastings - how much prior we can only guess.  The assumption made in the op that Mab's ascension to Queen and the Fae ascension to Guardianship do not have to match, in fact may not be able to match because of the above.

[Quantus]

Follow mostly what I've been trying to get across... that the Powers that made up the Sidhe royalty wouldn't have just stood around doing nothing once they were "created".  Combine that with current Mab having been Lady and it shows those Powers were in place before Mab ascended to Queen, and thus were already Guardians prior to Hastings - how much prior we can only guess.  The assumption made in the op that Mab's ascension to Queen and the Fae ascension to Guardianship do not have to match, in fact may not be able to match because of the above.

Ok, Im back on track now, sorry for the derail.  I agree with your first sentence.  It's the second that I see as unconfirmed at this point, based on the idea that a much weaker version of the Winter Court might have existed prior to their ascendance to Guardianship, meaning that Mab could have potentially been a Lady with a Queen above her once upon a time, and still be the first Queen to be in charge of the Gates.  It would mean that the previous queen was far weaker than the current Mab, and that Mab was the Lady of a much weaker Wyldfae court with a coincidentally Winter theme.


That being said, I tend to agree that what you describe is the most likely case.

Though for the sake of argument, it is possible that the reign of her predecessor was extremely short-lived with a Starborn around and that Mab moved up fairly quickly.  In other words Mab could be the second Queen Guardian and the Ascension might have still happened in the same general Hastings timeframe. 

[Serack]

Too meaty a conversation for me to join on my phone.  I'll have to set up my laptop now that I'm down in FL visiting for the holidays.

Also, hi foxed!  Good to see you