Cowl's Identity [FPOTM2 11.2016]

[Shift8]

But nobodies ever used it, technically even Kemmler doesn't know for sure what would happen in the end, he only presumed. Maybe it is useless and crazy but nobody knows that?

Certainly possible. It think its unwise to move on this assumption though. Given that Kemmler and Cowl certainly know much of how magic in the DV works, I would think their assumption of risk here is the greater indication of certainty. But perhaps not.

Also just get Toot Toot to volunteer as a sacrifice. No matter what is absorbed Toot Toots personality will counter it to be sure. You could just pay him in pizza.

[DonBugen]

Not Toot Toot!!

I would actually think it would be necessary for the DH not to alter people, otherwise it would be useless and no one would attempt it. No point in gaining power if your persona is so changed you forgot what you came to grocery store for.

That hasn't stopped every single Winter and Summer Knight from taking up the mantle.  Or every Denarian.  Or every turned Red Court or Black Court vampire.  The FBI guys with their wolf belts.  Or, heck, even Butters after he got Bob the Skull; Karrin remarks at how drastically he's changed.

I mean, it seems that the opposite is true in the Dresden Files - power gained by unnatural means changes a person.  And the idea of changing doesn't deter anyone from taking that power.

[jonas]

you know, butters shouldn't be effected by bob directly though. That he is, I wonder if he's not getting transference of Harry already accumulated on bob? He's acting more like Harry after all, not like bob. That would explain why evil bob had to be suppressed by DuMorne, and implies greater horrors for MM harry's personae.

[Quantus]

I would actually think it would be necessary for the DH not to alter people, otherwise it would be useless and no one would attempt it. No point in gaining power if your persona is so changed you forgot what you came to grocery store for.

By that logic nobody would use Black Magic ever, since it innately warps you on a supernatural level. 

One soul plus zero souls equals one souls worth of life. Harry ate Kravos's ghost but didn't kept the power because(woj) there was no death involved, no sacrifice or transfer of life power. He could eat all the things in Dr but if theres no life or soul involved, theres no fundamental act of change, of fusion of disparate parts. good grief how many ways do I gotta say it?

Life and Soul are two different energies. The Darkhallow was operating entirely in the Life vs Death Energy spectrum and does not affect the Soul. The way I see it, the Darkhallow sucks out all the Chi/Life Energy (which is also the core energy of mortal magic), killing in basically the same way as a wizards Deathcurse kills them, as opposed to SoulFire which drains Soul and combines it with Magic; Harry wondered once what the fallout would be from a Deathcurse backed by Soulfire. 

Soul is (so far) restricted to Mortals (vanilla or wizard), Half-born (ex WCV), and Offshoot Hominids (my best guess for the Sasquatch).  I have no idea about animals, but I do know are entirely valid targets of Necromancy in general and so presumably of the Darkhallow.  It would just need to be a Quantity over Quality difference, and Ive no clue how that balance falls out. 

[jonas]

By that logic nobody would use Black Magic ever, since it innately warps you on a supernatural level. 
Life and Soul are two different energies. The Darkhallow was operating entirely in the Life vs Death Energy spectrum and does not affect the Soul. The way I see it, the Darkhallow sucks out all the Chi/Life Energy (which is also the core energy of mortal magic), killing in basically the same way as a wizards Deathcurse kills them, as opposed to SoulFire which drains Soul and combines it with Magic; Harry wondered once what the fallout would be from a Deathcurse backed by Soulfire. 

Soul is (so far) restricted to Mortals (vanilla or wizard), Half-born (ex WCV), and Offshoot Hominids (my best guess for the Sasquatch).  I have no idea about animals, but I do know are entirely valid targets of Necromancy in general and so presumably of the Darkhallow.  It would just need to be a Quantity over Quality difference, and Ive no clue how that balance falls out.

and archangels. your forgetting the broader implications of what a soul is, energy, the power of creation itself, that which give mortals choice. life is a distillation of soul, and magic is a distillation of life, through emotions, experiences, ect. so it's all the same thing, it's just different levels of refined purity. Remember Uriel made Harry 'more of what you already are', not something else entirely. He... took his ability to say, drive a car, and showed him how it correlates to driving his jumbo jet instead. Still driving(flying, ok technicality, still operating anyway) and it's still magic if Uriels being accurate. When you kill a sacrifice what are you doing but taking it's current primer charger and expending it all at once? the soul inside is the generator.

[Quantus]

and archangels. your forgetting the broader implications of what a soul is, energy, the power of creation itself, that which give mortals choice. life is a distillation of soul, and magic is a distillation of life, through emotions, experiences, ect. so it's all the same thing, it's just different levels of refined purity. Remember Uriel made Harry 'more of what you already are', not something else entirely. He... took his ability to say, drive a car, and showed him how it correlates to driving his jumbo jet instead. Still driving(flying, ok technicality, still operating anyway) and it's still magic if Uriels being accurate. When you kill a sacrifice what are you doing but taking it's current primer charger and expending it all at once? the soul inside is the generator.

This is an interesting theory but it is not supported by anything Ive seen in the context of the DV.  Uriel never once says they are the same thing, not even close.

[jonas]

This is an interesting theory but it is not supported by anything Ive seen in the context of the DV.  Uriel never once says they are the same thing, not even close.

He specifically says what I quoted, he made Harry more of what he already was. similar isn't the same, but he didn't have to fundamentally change harry to get him throwing soulfire. Car that runs on gas or vegetable oil better comparison?
How about an electric car that's hybrid to run with gas as well so when it needs extra power its available?

[Quantus]

He specifically says what I quoted, he made Harry more of what he already was. similar isn't the same, but he didn't have to fundamentally change harry to get him throwing soulfire. Car that runs on gas or vegetable oil better comparison?
How about an electric car that's hybrid to run with gas as well so when it needs extra power its available?

Ok, how does "More that what you already are" translate to "Magic and Soul are actually all the same thing"? Because you didnt say similar, you said actually "all the Same Thing".  Just because Rebar and Concrete are both used to make a building does not mean they the same material. 

[jonas]

Ok, how does "More that what you already are" translate to "Magic and Soul are actually all the same thing"? Because you didnt say similar, you said actually "all the Same Thing".  Just because Rebar and Concrete are both used to make a building does not mean they the same material.

But a construction worker is always just a construction worker no? their not the same, they are similar, Rebar and concrete are both building blocks. Soul and spirit are both part of your essence. magic, life, soul, all part of that same creative energy.

[Quantus]

But a construction worker is always just a construction worker no? their not the same, they are similar, Rebar and concrete are both building blocks. Soul and spirit are both part of your essence. magic, life, soul, all part of that same creative energy.

OK, i went to find the context of this (in my opinion unrelated) quote you are basing your theory on.  It wasnt Uriel that said it, it was Mab, who said in response to Harry's What has he done to me: “That is a question only you can answer. But I can say this much: He has given you the potential to be more of what you are.”

In other words, he's given you Power.  But the same statement could refer to Knowledge or any other sort.  Nothing there says that Magic and Soul are the same thing, or even really comes close. It just says that Harry was given the possibility to Grow. 


Now, if you want to argue that The Angels did all that initial Creation via Soulfire, and since Soulfire is based on Soul ALL REALITY is really just Soul, including all Matter and Every Energy...Well I cannot refute that, but it's a little like saying lead and gold are the same this because they are both made of protons...not false, but not true enough to be applied that way in any practical sense (short of star trek replicators I guess)

[jonas]

OK, i went to find the context of this (in my opinion unrelated) quote you are basing your theory on.  It wasnt Uriel that said it, it was Mab, who said in response to Harry's What has he done to me: “That is a question only you can answer. But I can say this much: He has given you the potential to be more of what you are.”

In other words, he's given you Power.  But the same statement could refer to Knowledge or any other sort.  Nothing there says that Magic and Soul are the same thing, or even really comes close. It just says that Harry was given the possibility to Grow. 


Now, if you want to argue that The Angels did all that initial Creation via Soulfire, and since Soulfire is based on Soul ALL REALITY is really just Soul, including all Matter and Every Energy...Well I cannot refute that, but it's a little like saying lead and gold are the same this because they are both made of protons...not false, but not true enough to be applied that way in any practical sense (short of star trek replicators I guess)

Na I just got this theory the body is the generator of life with the soul as the fuel. (I guess it wasn't uriel, my bad, like I said, haven't even cracked a butcher book in almost a year.) I notice without one Butters soul starts to fade too. When harry uses all his magic his physical energy suffers, when Harry uses up a bit of his soul Bob tells harry to go generate more by living... hell that's more of a connection than i'd thought of before. to generate more soul you live life, magic IS a distillation of life... I think that's better than I had before. shows a direct association between living and having soul, the connection between magic and life is of course spelled out everywhere.
You always know the right questions Q

[Griffyn612]

So... Cowl's identity, then?

[jonas]

So... Cowl's identity, then?

Yea... sorry, didn't mean to jack your thread there. Still, I find discussions flow more smoothly if you don't try to transfer them half way through. Unless it's more than two trying to discuss a separate topic vs random tangent played to it's end between two peeps.

[DonBugen]

Honestly, I think that if Cowl isn't a future Dresden, then he must be an unknown-yet-important person.  Aside from McCoy, I can't think of anyone else that's really putting off a "more than they seem" vibe...  but then again, I always believed that Maeve was exactly what she seemed, and that all fell apart.

Edit: OK, not true - Andi also is putting off a "more than they seem" vibe. But in Andi's case, it's more of an "I'm partially paralyzed" or "I suffered brain damage" vibe than an "I'm a secret dark lord" vibe.

[jonas]

I think almost everybody has that 'more than they seem vibe'. Can't name a major character that isn't either seen from our perspective or from Harry's perspective as shifty eyed or playing something closer to the chest than they say. Except maybe Micheal, but he don't count, he's practically a saint.