ritual to remove a denarian shadow

[nadia.skylark]

So, I was actually reading an old thread on this topic, and it got me thinking. One one hand, several people said it should be possible if it worked for the game, but on the other hand, lots of people said that it shouldn't be possible because it was a gross violation of cannon.

IMHO, they're both right. So I think I've found a way to let one use a ritual to remove a denarian shadow that isn't a violation of cannon.

The only way we've seen a denarian shadow be removed in cannon is when an incredibly powerful mental attack hit the person and was absorbed by their shadow. I don't see why this can't be done with the target redirecting the attack, rather than the shadow--though obviously that would be a lot harder.

First, the person with the shadow would have to win a social/mental conflict against the shadow to keep it from interfering.

Then, that person would probably have to do a ritual to set up a psychomantic block to stop the shadow redirecting the ritual to the person.

Then, another person would have to perform a 30+ shift ritual targeting the person with the shadow, which would probably violate both the 3rd and 4th Laws even though the person targeted was willing.

Then, the person with the shadow would get one roll to control all the shifts of power (sort of like how Harry redirected the entropy curse in Blood Rites) and if they failed, they'd become like a Renfield, only obeying the shadow rather than a vampire.

And of course, this wouldn't do anything about their link to the coin, so unless that was contained in a circle the Fallen inside could still speak to them. (And of course, if that circle is broken down the road...)

This would seem to be consistent with cannon, and would give players a way to get rid of a denarian shadow if they wanted, while still explaining why it's never been done in cannon.

Opinions?

[Quantus]

First impression is that it sounds like doing brain surgery with a .45   


One of your premises is slightly off, in terms of cannon:  There are three known ways to get rid of the shadow in the books.  1)Take up the coin (which absorbs the shadow back into the fallen) then forsake the coin.  2)hit the shadow with a major psychic attack that causes enough brain damage to wipe out the area it was housed in.  3)atrophy it by forsaking all magic until both are gone (unproven Church doctrine solution). 

[nadia.skylark]

First impression is that it sounds like doing brain surgery with a .45   

It is

One of your premises is slightly off, in terms of cannon:  There are three known ways to get rid of the shadow in the books.  1)Take up the coin (which absorbs the shadow back into the fallen) then forsake the coin.  2)hit the shadow with a major psychic attack that causes enough brain damage to wipe out the area it was housed in.  3)atrophy it by forsaking all magic until both are gone (unproven Church doctrine solution).

I know. I'm talking specifically about how to use major thaumaturgy to get rid of a shadow, in order to avoid options 1 and 3.

[Quantus]

It is

I know. I'm talking specifically about how to use major thaumaturgy to get rid of a shadow, in order to avoid options 1 and 3.

Fair enough, though I personally think option 1 would be way easier and less risky.

Your first two steps seem redundant, I'd think redirecting the ritual would qualify as Interference. 

I think would really only take 3(ish) parts:  An effort by the infected to Lock Down the shadow and prevent it from acting; as part of that or maybe separately you'd need an effort to hold it in a particular region of the brain either by brute force or maybe setting of a psychic booby-trap, luring it into your Optic center or maybe the spatial relations region by asking for some specific assistance?  Then you'd need the actual attack which would most likely be a psychic attack but could potentially be some kind of engineered backlash, maybe from tapping a ley line or something equally powerful.  Then you'd need someone or something skilled enough to aim the attack at the specific area of the brain that the shadow is held in.  I dont really think the infected would need to take control of it, and if the 2nd person has an invitation I highly doubt it would violate any Laws as it's the equivalent of a requested medical procedure.  Not all Neuromancy is Illegal, it's just generally frowned upon by stuffy Council wizards as being close to a Law, just like ectomancy.  So that's one action by the infected to Hold the Shadow, another to gather crazy amounts of energy from somewhere, and a third to aim it properly.  Or, to follow the cannon forms, The infected Holds the shadow while three others do the Load, Aim, and Fire of the attack ritual. 

That's all not too far from what you described.  I think the main different is that I dont see why the infected would need to be the one to "redirect" the attack if those casting it are capable of hitting their target, the infected would just need to devote everything they have in an opposed contest against the shadow to lock them down. 

[nadia.skylark]

Your first two steps seem redundant, I'd think redirecting the ritual would qualify as Interference.

Maybe. Lash managed to redirect the attack on Harry, but that could be because she was redirecting it to herself, because Harry let her, or both.

On the other hand, in Proven Guilty Lasciel's shadow had no problem interfering with Harry's attempt to track down Molly, and only stopped because Harry said he'd go through with it anyway and kill himself. So you'd have to protect against that, at least.

You're right though that this could be one step rather than two, though--although the social/mental conflict could be to stop the shadow from messing with the block until it's too late, if one wanted to include it.

and if the 2nd person has an invitation I highly doubt it would violate any Laws as it's the equivalent of a requested medical procedure.  Not all Neuromancy is Illegal, it's just generally frowned upon by stuffy Council wizards as being close to a Law, just like ectomancy.

I think the person throwing the attack should take the lawbreaker power--or at least change an aspect--because of the risk they're taking. Even if the target is okay with it, it doesn't change the fact that you're willingly chucking an attack at someone's mind that will likely do permanent damage.

I think the main different is that I dont see why the infected would need to be the one to "redirect" the attack if those casting it are capable of hitting their target, the infected would just need to devote everything they have in an opposed contest against the shadow to lock them down.

I thought that it should be the infected because they're the ones that chose to have the shadow in the first place, so it would make sense thematically that they'd be the one who has to get rid of it. I also have trouble imagining that a person who isn't the infected could tell which parts of the mind were whose, so I'd definitely up the difficulty significantly if someone else did the targeting--and I'd probably force the formerly infected to take some level of consequence just on general principles.

[Quantus]

I think the person throwing the attack should take the lawbreaker power--or at least change an aspect--because of the risk they're taking. Even if the target is okay with it, it doesn't change the fact that you're willingly chucking an attack at someone's mind that will likely do permanent damage.

For me this falls into the categorical analogy of a surgeon.  They arent "cutting somebody open" they are attempting to heal them, with full compassion and humanity and concern for their well-being, no soul-twisting needed.  A surgeon who tries and fails to heal somebody isnt a monster, even if they are willingly cutting somebody's heart or brain out (literally in some instance). It wouldnt be any different than the Gatekeeper and LTW working to remove Peabody's programming. 

The only scenario I can think of would be if they tried to do it without the infected's knowledge and/or permission.  Which might make sense if they are trying to prevent the Shadow from figuring out what they are up to. 

I thought that it should be the infected because they're the ones that chose to have the shadow in the first place, so it would make sense thematically that they'd be the one who has to get rid of it. I also have trouble imagining that a person who isn't the infected could tell which parts of the mind were whose, so I'd definitely up the difficulty significantly if someone else did the targeting--and I'd probably force the formerly infected to take some level of consequence just on general principles.

That's fair, I like the idea on incorporating the Free Will responsibility of the Infected (Enshadowed?)

[nadia.skylark]

For me this falls into the categorical analogy of a surgeon.  They arent "cutting somebody open" they are attempting to heal them, with full compassion and humanity and concern for their well-being, no soul-twisting needed.  A surgeon who tries and fails to heal somebody isnt a monster, even if they are willingly cutting somebody's heart or brain out (literally in some instance). It wouldnt be any different than the Gatekeeper and LTW working to remove Peabody's programming.

That makes sense--although it might depend on how likely they think it is to work. If they think it has a 1% chance of success and a 99% chance of irreparably damaging the Enshadowed's mind, that would be different than if they think it has a 99% chance of working.

[Nepene]

The shadow is a mental entity, and as such, should be possible to manipulate mentally. A skilled mind wizard stronger than a shadow should be able to forcibly remove them.

I'd treat it like a medical wizard. They'd have to take an aspect and a stunt representing their knowledge of the mind and surgery of it, and then would have to have a contest with the spirit. This may require some number of test subjects, along with some sponsored magic that aided in mind magic and some heavy duty entity to do the mental heavy lifting.

If you just try to do it on your own, you are slicing through the mind of a person.

[nadia.skylark]

The shadow is a mental entity, and as such, should be possible to manipulate mentally. A skilled mind wizard stronger than a shadow should be able to forcibly remove them.

So long as the Enshadowed agrees. If they don't, then the spell would need to take out the Enshadowed as well as the shadow at the very least, and you could make a good case for the spell failing automatically due to the free will thing. (Granted, a medical wizard probably wouldn't try to remove the shadow if the Enshadowed said they didn't want it gone, but they might not tell the Enshadowed what they were planning so as not to alert the shadow.)

[Sanctaphrax]

I think you're in the clear Law-wise. The Fourth Law is about reflecting other people's free will, and destroying a demonic parasite is pretty clearly not infringing on their free will.

As for the actual mechanics of the spell, I'd just make it a really high-powered ritual. Don't see much reason to make it more complicated. Although I would have the shadow interfere with the ritual preparations.

[g33k]

Some thoughts & observations:

1 - I imagine that the Church has had quite a few occasions, across the centuries, to attempt removal of shadows.  I presume the Fallen have been "Enshadowing" mortals for millennia (i.e. the Denarians are using a method long-known amongst the Fallen), and have developed a LOT of ways to resist removal.  I doubt that any mortal (except perhaps the current vessel of the Archive) has sufficient knowledge to remove a Denarian shadow.

2 - We only know of Lasciel's shadow.  Others may operate substantially differently!  We already know that the actual Denarians operate very differently, so I presume their shadows do, too...  One of the more-brutal Denarians might just try to coerce the host, break down their will until it can force them to go get the coin:  sleep deprivation, illusory pain, etc etc etc...  How one might go about opposing or removing a shadow might be very different (and substantially harder, or easier) depending on the Fallen who "Enshadowed" the mortal.  I presume some will simply destroy the host-mind, rather than permit it to go free...

3 - Given the ability to create illusions, I'm unclear on how much one could rely upon a ritual that one created for oneself... do you REALLY have that holy water frozen in your ice-cube tray?  And are you really grinding them in a sno-cone maker, or is it actually a (none-too-clean) meat-grinder?  Etc...

4 - This one is more hypothetical, but:  I suspect that Harry's case is just a specific instance of the general Church method.  A "Shadow" is a quick impression/imprint of Fallen will&knowlege placed within a mortal mind and fundamentally PART of that mortal.  But mortals can change, can heal, can be redeemed.  Harry found a way to "redeem" Lash, and she ended up sacrificing herself to save Harry; note well:  Lash chose the path of love and self-sacrifice... she was no longer "fallen!"  I suspect that ANY mortal will eventually be free of a Fallen-Shade (unless they succumb and claim the coin).  The Church restrains the Enshadowed mortal and the coin, and gives that mortal support to heal; Harry just used sheer stubbornness & fundamental "goodness" to hold out until natural healing could happen.
 

[Quantus]

Some thoughts & observations:

1 - I imagine that the Church has had quite a few occasions, across the centuries, to attempt removal of shadows.  I presume the Fallen have been "Enshadowing" mortals for millennia (i.e. the Denarians are using a method long-known amongst the Fallen), and have developed a LOT of ways to resist removal.  I doubt that any mortal (except perhaps the current vessel of the Archive) has sufficient knowledge to remove a Denarian shadow.

I think this is something of a fallacy, it's essentially saying that because they've had the problem for 2000 years they must have solved the problem several times by now.  But I can't imagine that magic is that static and complete any more than Science is.  We've had the need and the ingredients for penicillin for basically all of human history, but only figured it out in the last century.  Similarly, in terms of magic the Church has been stuck in the dark ages since, well, the Dark Ages.  They've had opportunity for divine intervention Im sure, but I doubt they've approached the problem the same way a modern Wizard would.  And for that matter I doubt a modern wizard would approach the problem the same way one would have a few centuries back. 

Michael only knows of one way to remove a shadow safely, so if the Church is holding more methods secret from even the Knights, they must be pretty horrific. 

[Nepene]

It obviously depends on the GM, but in canon I'd classify this as the sort of thing that requires Big magic to accomplish, similar to how it required a Mother of Winter to remove the Red Court infected taint.

In terms of effectively doing it in an intellectual manner, it should be possible. It would probably just require a lot of research into dark magics. Breaking a foreign mind, demon manipulation, physical harm with magic.

While science has advanced a great deal magic has had less advancements. Wizards tend to hoard their research, and much of the more productive magic is inhibited by the prohibition on killing people. Before we had penicillin we had arsenic as a cure, and a lot of people died from that. But syphilis was worse. It starts with sores down there, and progresses to slowly consuming your body, filling it with sores of dead tissue, destroying your body and mind from the inside and outside. It's an absolutely horrific way to die, and people were very desperate for anything that cured it, and went to some quite dark places in science.

Becoming a vampire is worse, but few mages are willing to take the steps needed to find a cure. Without taking those steps finding a cure would be hard. Or having a very strong entity behind you with enough power and skill to do these things.

[nadia.skylark]

1 - I imagine that the Church has had quite a few occasions, across the centuries, to attempt removal of shadows.  I presume the Fallen have been "Enshadowing" mortals for millennia (i.e. the Denarians are using a method long-known amongst the Fallen), and have developed a LOT of ways to resist removal.  I doubt that any mortal (except perhaps the current vessel of the Archive) has sufficient knowledge to remove a Denarian shadow.

While the Church has almost certainly attempted to remove shadows on many occasions, there is no evidence that I know of that they have been working with wizards to do so. Even if they have been working with wizards, it is quite plausible, given what the White Council thinks of mind magic, that they've never worked with one skilled enough at psychomancy to do this.

2 - We only know of Lasciel's shadow.  Others may operate substantially differently!  We already know that the actual Denarians operate very differently, so I presume their shadows do, too...  One of the more-brutal Denarians might just try to coerce the host, break down their will until it can force them to go get the coin:  sleep deprivation, illusory pain, etc etc etc...  How one might go about opposing or removing a shadow might be very different (and substantially harder, or easier) depending on the Fallen who "Enshadowed" the mortal.  I presume some will simply destroy the host-mind, rather than permit it to go free...

Very true.

3 - Given the ability to create illusions, I'm unclear on how much one could rely upon a ritual that one created for oneself... do you REALLY have that holy water frozen in your ice-cube tray?  And are you really grinding them in a sno-cone maker, or is it actually a (none-too-clean) meat-grinder?  Etc...

This is why the first couple of steps are ensuring that the shadow can't interfere.

4 - This one is more hypothetical, but:  I suspect that Harry's case is just a specific instance of the general Church method.  A "Shadow" is a quick impression/imprint of Fallen will&knowlege placed within a mortal mind and fundamentally PART of that mortal.  But mortals can change, can heal, can be redeemed.  Harry found a way to "redeem" Lash, and she ended up sacrificing herself to save Harry; note well:  Lash chose the path of love and self-sacrifice... she was no longer "fallen!"  I suspect that ANY mortal will eventually be free of a Fallen-Shade (unless they succumb and claim the coin).  The Church restrains the Enshadowed mortal and the coin, and gives that mortal support to heal; Harry just used sheer stubbornness & fundamental "goodness" to hold out until natural healing could happen.

I seriously doubt that. Even if all the records the Church had on this method were destroyed, the fact that Lash was so surprised when she realized that Harry had resisted her so long would imply that no one had done so before. (I think Lash actually said something to that effect, but I don't have my of the books with me to check.)

It obviously depends on the GM, but in canon I'd classify this as the sort of thing that requires Big magic to accomplish, similar to how it required a Mother of Winter to remove the Red Court infected taint.

Given that mortal free will can throw the Fallen out, it ought, IMHO, to be able to remove a shadow as well. The question then becomes how to exercise one's free will to be rid of the shadow, since just telling it to get out is obviously insufficient.

[Nepene]

Well, technically free will doesn't throw the Denarian out. Exercise of free will lets the Denarian in to influence you more, but it's the physical action of throwing the coin away that stops them influencing you so overtly.

In the same way physically throwing away the parts of the brain the shadow is in should stop them. A shotgun to the head should do that, which is probably what some people with a stronger moral compass do.