Evocation Mental Attacks & Thaumaturgy Attack Spells

[Nerhesi]

Afternoon all, wonder if I can get a bit of clarity:

a) Can Spirit Evocation be used to conduct Psionic/Psychic/Mental attacks?  I clearly see Spirit as the element that handles "Force", "Veils" and "Mind Magic". While the last bit is clearly articulated for certain utility purposes, I can find no reference to a brute-application of "Mind" similar to a Brute application of Fire or so.

b) Thaumaturgy attack spell.  Can thaumaturgy be used to carry out attacks that are mechanically be similar to Evocation but thematically different. Example - a spell that seeks to cause internal organ damage... or, if the above is not possible via evocation, a psionic attack, or perhaps a entropic decay/disintegration spell.  But rather than attempt to cause a consequence directly, the aim is to simply cause stress.  So for example:

A Thaumaturgy entropic disintegration that aims to cause 5-Stress. So the complexity is simply the attack roll I want (Text box page 256 Paranet Papers).  This would mean I need Lore +5 to do it with no prep.  I then simply roll Discipline to attack versus my targets defense - treating it as a weapon 5 attack.  Does that sound about right?

What about a Soulfire attack? Is it an evocation attack or a thaumaturgy attack if you were, lets say, attacking with Soulfire (I'm feeling a bit sick here as I'm picturing Mystra's Chosen and I feel oh so geeky - I apologise)

[Sanctaphrax]

a) The books are not entirely clear on this point. I think the writers intended the answer to be yes. But for balance reasons you should ignore that, because if Spirit can toss out mental attacks then it can drop basically anything in one hit.

b) Thaumaturgy attacks don't have attack rolls or weapon ratings. A complexity 5 ritual attack is an accuracy 5, weapon 0 attack.

As for Soulfire, you can use it for Evocation or for Thaumaturgy.

[Nerhesi]

Thanks for the clarity, that only leaves on minor question:

Thaum as an attack, you sure it is a 5-accuracy attack? I'm looking at a stress causing attack not a consequence or aspect addition. This is in context of using Thaum as an attack or block as listed in Paranet.

Again - I could be wrong, but this seems to be something you can do?

At the very least, is not something you can do for specialties that list with the "method and speed" of evocation - example entropic attacks with unseelie magic, places of power and the like?

[Nerhesi]

I may have found further relevant material:

Entropy Curse Weapon Grade - YS Pg 296
26 shifts is obviously super high.

So it's Athletics vs 26!!! So when Deadly Luck is compelled as per this example.. the result is stress and consequences? Perhaps You've got +6 Athletics, Sure Footed Aspect and Nobody gonna Keep me down! For couple of invokes...
Whats that Mean? Does mean the target, when it slips in the shower, has to assign 12 stress/consequences worth? (Athletics skill, +4 from Fudge Dice Maximum, +4 invoked aspects)

I think I'm confusing myself even more.  From what I see with Thaumaturgy, you just oppose the assigned complexity - and you wont need the prep if complexity is <= lore.  So is the following not plausible:

Complexity 8 Thaumaturgy Spell "Gut-ya" (For a Wizard with Lore
Target takes stress = 8 - (Endurance +4)

Probably not the same efficient but I'm just curious from a mechanics perspective.

EDIT:

I believe I've figured it out after reading the example on Paranet Page 257.  The example cites someone trying to use Thaumaturgy to cause a severe (6 point consequence). To do so, they are assuming the target has Discipline +1, 3 mental stress boxes/track, and then causing the 6 point consequence. 10 complexity total.

So I just wanted an indiscriminate "mental attack" that does 4 stress, I would simply just need Complexity of (4 + whatever I think their discipline skill is).

Assuming my lore meets/exceed complexity, AND I know entropic-effects with Evocation's speed and methods, I wouldn't need to draw a circle with chalk or trace something or what not first. 

[Nerhesi]

Actually - if the example above (and in paranet) both assume the target doesnt know the attack is coming, otherwise you'd need to include +4 to the complexity to account for the fudge dice (defense roll)

[blackstaff67]

If it's a mental attack, then yes, the target will be rolling versus Discipline (or possibly Conviction, it such a stunt is present).  Physical attacks will probably default to Athletics. 

This all assumes for your Ritual that you have a personal link to the target; otherwise, get ready to lose shifts to Wards and Thresholds.

Finally, any Spirit attack will qualify as Lawbreaker 3rd or 4th, depending on intent (and maybe whether or not your target possess enough free will to be considered people).  For more on the subject, check out the Lawbreaker threads.   http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36777.0.html

[Nerhesi]

Now I'm confused

I'm assuming your answer blackstaff has to do with Thaum (at least the first part) - as just spirit evocation can't do mental attacks. This is my assumption.

My confusion stems from your statement that without a personal link for your ritual, you have to deal with wards and thresholds; where does it say that the personal link bypases such defenses as I must have missed it?

Thanks

[blackstaff67]

Page 267 of Your Story deals with symbolic links.  Also, see p. 230 regarding Thresholds under "Living with Magic."  I can't recall exactly where it's stated (if at all), but consensus here is that allowing anything of the paranormal to have a close link to you is A Bad Thing; there's a sidebar with Bob that mentions/refers to this. 

[Nerhesi]

Thanks Blackstaf - I am familiar with those pieces, but I can't find anything indicating that personal link bypases wards.

I see that a personal link is required or else you cant even attempt Thaum.
I don't see any way to bypass a ward (thankfully).

I may be incorrect

[SerGalahad]

So the general consensus is that you can't do Spirit Evocation Mental Attacks? Something like that would then fall under Thaumaturgy, right? What about a Sleep spell? Could you have a combat sleep spell using Spirit Evocation or would you need to do a Thaumaturgy ritual/spell for that? Would a sleep-type spell even be considered a mental attack?

I'm taking over as temporary-GM-for-the-night for the game I'm in as a player and one of the other players has a "Voodoo" character for whom the GM created a evocation-style sleep spell for her to use in combat and I've always been curious as to how that works and if that's "legal," but it's not my game and the GM doesn't need to hear me harping on or questioning things all the time. I'd rather be a good player and just have fun. But as the temporary-GM-for-the-night, I'm trying to decide how I'll handle it when the player tries to use that spell.

Thanks for the help!

[Ulfgeir]

So the general consensus is that you can't do Spirit Evocation Mental Attacks? Something like that would then fall under Thaumaturgy, right? What about a Sleep spell? Could you have a combat sleep spell using Spirit Evocation or would you need to do a Thaumaturgy ritual/spell for that? Would a sleep-type spell even be considered a mental attack?

I think you can have a sleep spell, sadly  if I recall correctly fatigue (as in getting so physically tired that you fall asleep) is specifically listed as being physical stress on YS201.
The character I play in the campign I play in, does have such a spell. Causes no damage, but rather fatigue and if you are taken out, you fall asleep.

/Ulfgeir

[Taran]

Page 267 of Your Story deals with symbolic links.  Also, see p. 230 regarding Thresholds under "Living with Magic."  I can't recall exactly where it's stated (if at all), but consensus here is that allowing anything of the paranormal to have a close link to you is A Bad Thing; there's a sidebar with Bob that mentions/refers to this.

You need a symbolic link to target a someone with thaumatugy.  period.  If you don't have one you CANNOT target a person.  The spell will automatically fail.  If you have a link, you can use thaumaturgy against them but you must still deal with wards and thresholds.  This is how Harry managed to survive the entropy curse by hiding out in his apartment.

So the general consensus is that you can't do Spirit Evocation Mental Attacks? Something like that would then fall under Thaumaturgy, right? What about a Sleep spell? Could you have a combat sleep spell using Spirit Evocation or would you need to do a Thaumaturgy ritual/spell for that? Would a sleep-type spell even be considered a mental attack?

I'm taking over as temporary-GM-for-the-night for the game I'm in as a player and one of the other players has a "Voodoo" character for whom the GM created a evocation-style sleep spell for her to use in combat and I've always been curious as to how that works and if that's "legal," but it's not my game and the GM doesn't need to hear me harping on or questioning things all the time. I'd rather be a good player and just have fun. But as the temporary-GM-for-the-night, I'm trying to decide how I'll handle it when the player tries to use that spell.

Thanks for the help!

Yeah, sleep is, generally, physical consequences with a Take-Out result of "asleep/unconscious"

[SerGalahad]

Thanks Ulfgeir and Taran! Good to know that Sleep spells are being used in the game. The way you said you've handled them will really help me as the temporary-GM.

[Ulfgeir]

Here is the Writeup of the Sleep-spell my character uses. One of her rote-spells:

Sleep spell
Type: Spirit evocation, Attack
Power: 6
Target: 1 target in line-of-sight, inflicting physical stress
Duration: One action
Opposed by: Target's Conviction or Endurance skill, magical blocks
Effect: Target suffers fatigue, and will fall to sleep if taken out.

The power is 4 from Conviction + 2 power from a focus ring.

/Ulfgeir

[Shaft]

Wouldn't a sleep spell be resisted by Endurance?  Is the sleep spell defined as an attack that imposes sudden physical fatigue on the target, or is a mental command to "go to sleep" (in which case, it's lawbreaking)?