Author Topic: I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood  (Read 3696 times)

Offline Strill

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I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood
« on: June 26, 2016, 11:38:17 AM »
One of the things that struck me as odd when reading the descriptions of the elements, was that Water was described almost exclusively as having to do with entropy and decay. This is not really something that water is classically associated with. The fact that the whole of the Element is characterized this way seems wrong to me, especially since Air and Fire, as described in the novels, fit their traditional associations perfectly. I think this might be due to a misunderstanding.

For example, air is one of the Elements where the novels' description matches its classical description. As a classical element, air is associated with two major properties: "Moistness" and "Warmth" (think breath, not wind). Moistness represents formlessness; the ability to adapt and conform due to lack of strict shape and rigid structure. Warmth is the power of separation, which breaks apart mixed things and causes them to attract others of their kind, so that they become sorted by type (as with an alembic or an oil distillation tower). When you combine the two, you get that air is the element of formless intangible things, and has the ability to sort them into their component parts...or in other words, air is the element of analysis. Breaking intangible ideas and concepts down to understand them. Hence why Bob is described interchangeably as a spirit of air and a spirit of intellect.

Fire is also described typically in the novels. As a classical element, fire is associated with Warmth and Dryness. Warmth is the power to separate mixed things into their parts as described with air. Warmth is also associated with choice and discrimination, because you separate your choice from other options. Dryness is form, the ability to have structure, inflexibility, identity, and physicality. Combined, fire is the ability to purify something into separate substances, while imposing form and structure on it, as with a smithy or a kitchen. Or in psychological terms, it's will, passion. A choice that is rigid and inflexible. An act of separating what you believe from what you do not, which you cannot be swayed from. A choice which imposes its own form on things. Hence why Dresden, with his implacable will, prefers Fire magic.

Water as a classical element is associated with Coolness, and Moistness. Coolness, associated with love, or aphrodite, is the force which brings different things together, combining them into one. Moistness is the lack of form or identity. Moistness adapts and conforms to circumstance without resistance. Hence you combine the two properties and you get traditionally feminine character traits: empathy and compassion to bring people together; obedience and conformity to adapt to circumstance. You get Water's ability to dissolve things. Water brings things together and combines them with itself. While dissolved, their form is gone, and they become malleable, but they're never destroyed. Eventually they separate and take a new form when spring comes and the Coolness leaves. In this way, water is associated with growth, rebirth, and metamorphosis.

I think that water's ability to dissolve is what Ramirez uses when he uses his Water shield. This is backed up by Jim B.'s comment on the matter:

Quote
Ramirez's gauntlet works with entropy-magic (a sub specialty of water magic--all things flowing, constantly changing and shifting, but never gone).

"Constantly changing and shifting, but never gone" are the key words. Water dissolves shape, but never destroys utterly. The substance is still there waiting to be reformed. Hence "entropy" is only one small part of water magic. You might argue that "entropy" in this context is more accurately characterized as half of a transformation. It's an aspect of Water's ability to make things malleable so that their shape can be changed.

I think this suggests a far wider spectrum of uses for Water magic.

TL;DR: "Entropy" as associated with water, has more to do with water's ability to dissolve things and make them malleable, than an inherent association of water with decay.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 04:42:52 PM by Strill »

Offline Taran

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Re: I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2016, 02:51:35 PM »
Awesome!   Now do earth!

Offline Strill

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Re: I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2016, 03:57:42 PM »
Earth is associated with Dryness and Coolness. Dryness is a rigid structure. Inflexible, unchanging, and unreceptive, but reliable and having a strong sense of identity and purpose. Coolness is the power to mix different things together.  With Dry and Cool together, Earth is associated with the family, home, and society. Those things which, when they remain stable, bind and bring together both households and countries. Psychologically, it represents pragmatism and realism. Donald Morgan's personality reflects his specialty in Earth magic: his unflinching belief in the authority and structure of the White Council and their Laws of Magic, as well as his willingness to set aside his ideals and perform his duty as the White Council's executioner.

If you want to read more, check out this series of articles:
https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/AGEDE/Intro.html
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 04:40:18 PM by Strill »

Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2016, 05:46:04 PM »
Great write up, but I have a comment and a (semi-rhetorical) question in response:

- First, if I had to guess, the whole "decay" being linked to Water came not from Jim but Evil Hat and is just marginal writing. There isn't a whit of this in the books or the short stories I've read as far as I can recall. My guess is it got messed up with Winter's domain over decay, where you also have some capability with Water.

- Second, can not the interpretation of classical elements change over time, and in fact has it already not? And if so, doesn't that mean what an element is capable of shifts over time as the population understands it differently? (Obviously when dealing with long-lived wizards passing down their knowledge, the information won't be as easily corrupted, but it still will happen.)
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Offline Mongward

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Re: I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2016, 08:14:17 PM »
Obviously when dealing with long-lived wizards passing down their knowledge, the information won't be as easily corrupted, but it still will happen.)
I don't think it was ever about information. Laws of magic change (as hinted by Bob once), so if the ideas tied to traditional elements changed, or were merged with those from other cultures (we do have to account for that), some defining qualities may well have changed. Magic isn't operating by hard and fast rules, so why should we account only for a singular interpretation of a [thing]? Still, I really like the write-up, I might even try to use it for my Mage in another system, in some capacity.
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Offline Strill

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Re: I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2016, 10:56:52 PM »
Great write up, but I have a comment and a (semi-rhetorical) question in response:

- First, if I had to guess, the whole "decay" being linked to Water came not from Jim but Evil Hat and is just marginal writing. There isn't a whit of this in the books or the short stories I've read as far as I can recall. My guess is it got messed up with Winter's domain over decay, where you also have some capability with Water.
They're referring to Ramirez's water shield, which was based around entropy. At the time of publication, it was the only example of Water magic. I included a quote from Jim B. about it in the OP.

I actually suspect the Fairy Courts might match this model of the elements as well. Water dissolves form, but never destroys utterly. Remember when Mother Winter said the same thing to Harry?

Quote
- Second, can not the interpretation of classical elements change over time, and in fact has it already not? And if so, doesn't that mean what an element is capable of shifts over time as the population understands it differently? (Obviously when dealing with long-lived wizards passing down their knowledge, the information won't be as easily corrupted, but it still will happen.)
Yes that's a possibility, but I haven't seen this in the novels. For example, Harry uses his understanding of Fire magic to appraise the personality of another fire practitioner based on their approach to Fire magic. He also makes some comments on what frame of mind is needed to use Fire. If the elements were that dependent on personal interpretation, this would be impossible. There would be plenty of people with completely contradictory interpretations of the elements.

I figure there must be enough structure to the classical elements system that subjective differences in understanding are relatively minor.

I don't think it was ever about information. Laws of magic change (as hinted by Bob once), so if the ideas tied to traditional elements changed, or were merged with those from other cultures (we do have to account for that), some defining qualities may well have changed. Magic isn't operating by hard and fast rules, so why should we account only for a singular interpretation of a [thing]? Still, I really like the write-up, I might even try to use it for my Mage in another system, in some capacity.
That's a possibility. Maybe the system itself is subject to the collective belief of humanity (or the collective belief of Wizards), but is not particularly beholden to individual interpretation.

That would make it subjective, while still being rigid enough that different practitioners still have a common frame of reference.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 11:27:52 PM by Strill »

Offline Strill

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Re: I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2016, 11:20:46 PM »
The elements also correspond to the seasons. Earth to Fall. Water to Winter. Air to Spring. Fire to Summer.

It might seem strange that Water would correspond to Winter, but you have to remember that Water binds with things, and dissolves their forms. During this time they're in stasis. Mutable and open to change, but unable to yet take shape. It's not until Spring's Warmth that the Water leaves, allowing those things to take a new form. An excess of Water represents smothering. Encouraging dependence and preventing others from self-actualizing. It also represents procrastination and avoiding commitment. Flexibility taken at the expense of identity.

I believe the Fairy courts correspond to these seasons. I'm going out on a limb here, and there's certainly room for alternate interpretation, so don't take this as anything close to conclusive. Mab's main traits are the cold of her realm, and the calculating logic and strategy she uses. These match up with Water and Air. Titania seems to be associated with warmth, fire, growth, and fertility. That fits with Fire and Earth.

I said before that the elements correspond to seasons. That's not quite true. The elements' seasons start and end on the equinoxes and solstices. For example, Water begins on the winter solstice, and ends on the spring equinox. This means that the seasons match perfectly with the time that each Fairy Court holds the Stone Table.

  • The Summer Court holds the table for the seasons of Water and Air, from the Winter Solstice to the Summer Solstice.
  • The Winter Court holds the table for the seasons of Fire and Earth, from the Summer Solstice to the Winter Solstice.

Curiously, this is exactly backwards. Summer holds the table during Winter's months, and Winter holds the table in Summer's months. Perhaps it's intentional? A counterbalance?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 01:52:37 AM by Strill »

Offline Dracorex

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Re: I Think Water Magic Is Misunderstood
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2016, 01:26:09 PM »
R.e. Misinterpretation of water: the canon is told from Harry's point of view, and he even directly admits he doesn't understand the principles to water magic. The RPG stuff is written by Billy with advice from still-clueless Harry, and an addendum that Bob's tried to explain it to him/them unsuccessfully.

So it is a misunderstanding, but that's probably on Harry's own part, as intended by Butcher.

And we're free to figure it out ourselves XD. Great write-ups, by the way XD.