Author Topic: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]  (Read 36743 times)

Offline vbear2011

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2016, 05:15:53 PM »


3)  Rear End PGH at the beginning.
I'm not sure what this accomplished.  The scene describes multiple impacts.  Possible results I can identify are:
  • Murph getting called in on the case early
  • Delay's Harry's being able to get onto the case
  • Makes Harry miserable early.

This seemed like an act of opportunity and desperation.  It was violent and not very precise.  The main reason why I pin TTH for this is because if he was indeed around he would probably have the opportunity, and maybe need the above 2 things accomplished, and also because I remember being lead to believe that we would get resolution to this mystery and seeing the scene from TTH's perspective ramming PGH would certainly give us closure. (the last is red because I'm not happy that I don't know where that memory comes from)



I always liked TTH for being the one to rear end PGH because if PGH hadn't been in his fender bender then he wouldn't have been all hazy, he would have unplugged his phone and Molly wouldnt have contacted him in time, So he would have tried using LC and blown up and died. I like TTH for tying up PGH just long enough to get caught up in the Molly Case, and giving TTH the chance to fix LC which he could do because he was the one who made it in the first place.

Offline Lawgiver

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2016, 05:19:50 PM »
Here it is:
The reference to direction strikes me... back towards the hotel's front desk...???

Isn't that where the convention sign-in tables are at... and Sandra Marling?  We've presumed somewhat that Darby Crane was the one working the magic but we've also noted that, with very few exceptions, White Court Vampires are not well versed in magic.

Marling has been tagged more than once as a suspect for "dark side" activities, this seems another likely bit of evidence.

Guesses, surmises, wags... /sigh
"Sufficiently advanced technology," my ass.

Offline raidem

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2016, 07:06:46 PM »
I could see marling being fomor.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
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Offline Lawgiver

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2016, 09:27:24 PM »
I could see marling being fomor.
I went back and read the various bits of Marling on-screen in PG... nothing there says Fomor to me... She doesn't wear a turtleneck sweater in the heat (like Vito does in BR), etc.  None of the fomor descriptor tags are used there.  I can't buy it. Sorry.
"Sufficiently advanced technology," my ass.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2016, 09:28:04 PM »
I went back and read the various bits of Marling on-screen in PG... nothing there says Fomor to me... She doesn't wear a turtleneck sweater in the heat (like Vito does in BR), etc.  None of the fomor descriptor tags are used there.  I can't buy it. Sorry.
But can you conclusively prove that she isn't?

Offline Lawgiver

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2016, 09:50:05 PM »
But can you conclusively prove that she isn't?
What, prove a negative?  All but impossible....please spare me.
"Sufficiently advanced technology," my ass.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2016, 11:15:00 PM »
Quote
The main thing that broke this barrier down for PG is Priscellie’s observation in my LC fix timing topic (Required external reading #2) that since Jim spent ink on explaining temporal issues in PG, something in that book required a temporal anomaly.  Yet we didn’t see the temporal Chekhov’s gun get fired, so if the reasoning is sound, it happened off screen.
Devil's Advocate: We did see time travel, in the sense that Maeve manipulated the time-stream around AT.  I think that was the first time we saw such a thing in the series, and needed at least some sort of setup before Murphy's job is all but lost at the end because of it.

Quote
2)  Summon the Murk during the Phage attacks
A, the cold nature of the Murk wards in these attacks screams Winter
B, Harry does briefly sense something familiar about the magic involved when he reaches out towards it

Negative:  It's hard to imagine Harry submitting to casting a spell that would facilitate the carnage the phages were wreaking, and also the blowby damage that was done by the confused people.
There's a lot more to the Reaper attack than just that.
  • The murk actually helped him hone in on where the attack was taking place.
  • There was a ward that seemed to be keeping him away, to the point he could barely walk through it.  As Rawlins says nothing, and the civilians aren't affected, it seems to only affect Harry... but possibly other magical creatures?  It takes them a minute or two to get there, and the phage had only attacked 3 people, killing 1 and injuring 2.  Did the murk and ward also slow it down?
  • It seems like the Reaper was already inside the theater, but the door was slammed open hard enough to wrench it off one hinge.  Was the phage inside, which was presumed since it seemed to have attacked from the front?  If so, who (with near-super strength) could have torn the door open in their haste?
  • Who was the shadowed figure that fled the room after the fight was over?  Someone casting the murk until the phage was killed?
  • As previously mentioned, there was a cold nature to the spell, and murk is a tool of Winter, as exhibited by the hobbs in SmF.

Quote
TTH could bring a side kick.  This has its own hazards because it's now 2 elephants in the temporal china shop, but may be doylisticly necessary.
I'm hoping for Maggie, and she has the Calvin & Hobbes book in her backpack.  She amuses herself while Harry fixes LC, and then when he hastily puts things away, he either leaves the book because he remembers finding it later, or he hastily puts it with the others, not realizing what it was.

Quote
Detail Mysteries from Proven Guilty:  These aren’t as huge as above, but insight on them might shed light on the others.
Other things of note that aren't actually mysteries:
  • PGH prepares to use LC, and is interrupted when the phone rings.  He's surprised he forgot to unplug the phone, and blames it on hurting his head.  I prefer to think that PGH actually did unplug it, but TTH was there in the apartment with him and plugged it back in so that he wouldn't miss Molly's call.
  • Harry has partial intellectus in SmF when he first arrives on Demonreach.  The "wizard foresight" might explain it, but it might also be a temporal side-effect of Harry having already been on the island as Warden because of time travel back to the events of PG.
  • I like the idea of Mab's wink at PGH mirroring a similar wink she gave TTH.
  • The reason the Scarecrow gave Harry a look of recognition when they first met in the parking lot was because he'd already met TTH.
  • It's speculated in the book that the reason the phages were allowed inside was because they might have assumed the shape of someone familiar, to get an invite.  As we saw no evidence of the phages or Fetches being able to do that, TTH might have been at the door to oversee Molly's kidnapping, to limit collateral damage.
  • I like the idea of Harry creating a time-bridge on Demonreach that allows him to come back in time.  Just like Merlin merged five times to make Demonreach once, Harry and his allies might merge time on Demonreach between the TT book and PG, meaning that the two times were always linked (non-linearly) so there was no version where Harry didn't time travel.


Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2016, 11:39:44 PM »
Also, as for other accomplices, I nominate Thomas. He shadows Harry for much of the plot, and when he joins the party, it is noticeable how apart from the group he is. Thomas doesn't really do anything to affect PG.
The issue I have with Thomas is that, if Thomas knew Harry was going to time travel back at some point, why was he so sure Harry was dead after Changes?  Instead he would have been convinced Harry wasn't, because he hadn't traveled back yet. 

Offline Foxed

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2016, 02:06:51 AM »
The issue I have with Thomas is that, if Thomas knew Harry was going to time travel back at some point, why was he so sure Harry was dead after Changes?  Instead he would have been convinced Harry wasn't, because he hadn't traveled back yet. 

Elementary, my dear Griff. TTH explains to Thomas enough about not mucking around with the timeline that Thomas shadows Harry and rescues him when he needs to, and then does his best to stay out of the decision making process.

So when Harry dies, Thomas thinks that the timeline had indeed been mucked with and IT'S ALL HIS FAULT.
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Offline bigdangmoose

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2016, 05:08:49 AM »
Elementary, my dear Griff. TTH explains to Thomas enough about not mucking around with the timeline that Thomas shadows Harry and rescues him when he needs to, and then does his best to stay out of the decision making process.

So when Harry dies, Thomas thinks that the timeline had indeed been mucked with and IT'S ALL HIS FAULT.

Well, it's either that, or it's TTMolly that talks to Thomas, being that she is one of the only people with the power now to go back in time, capable to enter the place, know about the lab, and possibly fix LC. She could easily tell him that if he doesn't help and she doesn't fix LC, Harry would die. She doesn't have to say how, just that he does. So when Harry does die, he is all over himself for not being there to help.
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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2016, 01:15:41 PM »
I've been quite busy recently... but sooner or later Im going to have to throw down on this topic, get my head in the game first, do a quick reread...

*the scene where harry gets hit is cluebatted in BR, right before Harry gets on Murphy's bike, before crash with magic lance...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 01:17:12 PM by Jaken »

Offline raidem

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2016, 04:05:55 PM »
I've argued before that BR standoff between Harry/Murphy with Lord Raith in BR gets repeated at some point.  I also wondered if perhaps Harry riding Murphy's bike with magical lance sort of messed with time a bit.

Murphy talks about in the standoff with Lord Raith, doing it 'this time' Harry's way.  I've allowed the possibility that in some redo, they do it Murphy's way and get even better results.

I admit I reach a bit with my ideas.  Most can't be correct.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2016, 04:13:57 PM »
I also wondered if perhaps Harry riding Murphy's bike with magical lance sort of messed with time a bit.
How?

Offline raidem

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2016, 04:54:21 PM »
Quote
I started channeling our force into the staff, focusing it into a blunted wedge in front of us. All the
extra power flooding ahead of us started heating the air, and flickers of blue and purple fire began
streaking back around us in a corona, like one of the space shuttles on reentry.

I think Harry inadvertently tapped into a time manipulation.   That motorcycle, as we see in Cold Days, has a history with time travel.  It is also likely that Cold Days isn't the first time it rode with The Wild Hunt.  Thomas rode that motorcyle in Dead Beat, I believe.  He did get pulled into the Hunt then.  It's also a vehicle strongly resistant to active mortal magic.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 05:01:22 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline peregrine

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2016, 05:54:46 PM »
Which time manipulation was going on for Harry to have tapped into?