Author Topic: Who can death curse?  (Read 10270 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2016, 03:59:02 AM »
Mavra is explicitly stated to be a sorcerer, possibly on the same level of power as a White Council Wizard, so while I wouldn't say it's unreasonable for most practitioners to have the ability (training required), it's only once it gets to WCW levels that the death curse is something to worry about.
Right; but (per the OP, whose GM is giving all BC master-vamp's a "Death Curse") I was addressing the question of whether the books seem to indicate Mavra had the power via her Powerful-Practitioner abilities, or her Master-Blamp abilities.

From the way *I* read/interpret the books, I conclude it's a Practitioner-thing, not a Blampire-thing.

I have yet to see anything put forward that I find indicates it's a Blampire Thang...

Others' MMV... and evidently, do (as per the OP's GM).

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2016, 02:33:15 AM »
Want to get technical?

YS282 describes it as "the Wizard's Death Curse."  So you have to be a wizard.  Does that mean you have to be on the White Council?  I'd rule probably not.  But I'd say that to have an effective death curse, you have to have full Evocation and full Thaumaturgy, and maybe the Sight too (which fills the template).  BCV Masters do not get a death curse unless they're also spellcasters of this calibre.

You do get a Death Curse if you're taken out though.  It's part of owning your death scene.  YS203 Sidebar. 

I'd say that an effective compel on aspects that would indicate that the dying NPC would not expect to die, would not have time to gather their thoughts, etc. would be enough to mitigate/eliminate a death curse.  Finally, I'd say death curses can only effect the characters that killed (specifically dealt a consequence to, or took out) the character, based on how they're portrayed in the books.

Offline Cadd

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2016, 09:32:12 AM »
I agree with practically everything but the last sentence. Partly based on Harry preparing to unleash his death curse on Grevane when about to be killed by Morgan, and partly how he talks about the death curse at other times, you can direct it however you want; it's just that "the bastard that's killing me!" tends to be the primary thing on a dying wizard's mind.

(Also, tiny thing: you get a death curse if Taken Out and the victor chooses Death as the result! Taken Out =/= Death.)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2016, 01:10:17 PM »
I agree with practically everything but the last sentence. Partly based on Harry preparing to unleash his death curse on Grevane when about to be killed by Morgan, and partly how he talks about the death curse at other times, you can direct it however you want; it's just that "the bastard that's killing me!" tends to be the primary thing on a dying wizard's mind.

(Also, tiny thing: you get a death curse if Taken Out and the victor chooses Death as the result! Taken Out =/= Death.)
Or maybe you die anyway if you use your death curse.

It is basically a spell that uses all your live energy cast by a wizard just before he is going to die using up all his live energy. If you do it to early and your enemy does not kill you you still die. That is why you should cast your death curse not too late but also not too early.
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Offline Gaelicwolf

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2016, 05:13:19 PM »
Given how they have been described in the books, I would say that any practitioner could *in theory* cast a death curse, however, *in practice* it likely doesn't make much sense to focus on anything but a wizard or above's death curse.

A death curse is a lasting magical effect that either has to be sustained by the sheer amount of power thrown at that last instant of death, or has to be tied to something else to keep the curse powered. Remember the curse has to last over the person day in and day out past all of these sun rises and the water that flows over them and whatnot. I imagine besides going ka-blewy, the only effective way to cast a death curse is to tie the spell to something else to keep it renewed. (Like Maragret's death curse was tied to her children.) Anyone who isn't a wizard likely doesn't have enough power or training to realistically create a death curse worth mentioning. They might have enough power to throw out a spell of vast proportions for them, but given what a wizard likely slings about, it's not something comparable or noticeable.

Also something to keep in mind is free will. I would argue that only a practitioner who has free will can cast a death curse. We get into a grey area with vampires as they seem to be creatures with far more free will than other monsters, but less than humans. Vampires aside though, most monsters shouldn't get a death curse. Faeries, old gods, dragons and the like are all bound by rules and limitation that might not be readily apparent, but forbid them from taking actions of true free will and thus cannot act outside of those restrictions. further, it is entirely possible that most of the power they wield are mantles of one form or another and the power of a mantle can't simply be used up and discarded, it must be passed to another individual (as logic would dictate by the very nature of a mantle of power).

Or maybe you die anyway if you use your death curse.

It is basically a spell that uses all your live energy cast by a wizard just before he is going to die using up all his live energy. If you do it to early and your enemy does not kill you you still die. That is why you should cast your death curse not too late but also not too early.

I'm pretty sure this is the case. The way death curses are described it seems like a last ditch effort to use up all the energy in your body you have left to cast one final spell in order to harm/protect/whatever at your target. While the wizard might have been effectively killed by whomever put them in the situation where they are using the death curse, it's always seemed like more of a final suicide option. The wizard, understanding they are doomed anyway, takes the reigns and says "I'm going out on my own terms".

Harry does almost kill himself with magic a few times in the book, just when he is slinging it around at his enemies. It's entirely possible if you don't stop yourself in time you could bleed yourself dry with magic, possibly with one big spell.

Offline Cadd

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2016, 08:27:55 PM »
What I meant was that someone taking you out gets to decide how you are no longer part of that conflict. If they choose that you die, you get to throw your death curse as you always own your death scene. If they dictate that you're knocked out, you don't actually get automatically get to say "I launch my death curse instead". The situation might be such that you could, but it's not necessary by either source fiction or rules.

If you chose to death curse (as a concession for instance), then yes, of course your character is killed. (Even though that might not mean the character is completely gone; for a superb example of a mechanic-light, narratively masterful death curse, have a look at the climax of Haru's PbP Cradle of Darkness! Link is of course very spoilery for the story, I recommend reading it in full instead.)

Most death curses are not continuous effects, Maggie's is explicitly practically unique in its longevity. Most, even from very old and experienced wizards, are immediate and very violent, since the circumstances of their use usually don't leave terribly much time to consider more complex options and once emotions tend to lean toward direct, retaliatory action.

While the Free Will-aspect is interesting, the only non-mortal suspected of being capable of a death curse is Mavra, and BCV are specifically by WoJ on the very low end of free will.

Offline RonLugge

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2016, 04:05:08 PM »
Also something to keep in mind is free will. I would argue that only a practitioner who has free will can cast a death curse. We get into a grey area with vampires as they seem to be creatures with far more free will than other monsters, but less than humans. Vampires aside though, most monsters shouldn't get a death curse. Faeries, old gods, dragons and the like are all bound by rules and limitation that might not be readily apparent, but forbid them from taking actions of true free will and thus cannot act outside of those restrictions. further, it is entirely possible that most of the power they wield are mantles of one form or another and the power of a mantle can't simply be used up and discarded, it must be passed to another individual (as logic would dictate by the very nature of a mantle of power).

I'd need to re-read the scene, but Harry was pretty clear that the only reason he didn't eat a death curse from the villain in Summer Knight is because said villain was too focused on trying to fulfill her purpose.  If the villain had recognized the futility of that effort and turned on him, he certainly thought she could curse him.  I think you're putting too much emphasis on the power of the mantle, and overlooking that anyone who takes up a mantle of any sort has to have the free will & life energy to do so.

Rather than calling Mavra an exception, lets just accept her as proof that even monsters without free will still have the ability to throw a death curse.

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Harry does almost kill himself with magic a few times in the book, just when he is slinging it around at his enemies. It's entirely possible if you don't stop yourself in time you could bleed yourself dry with magic, possibly with one big spell.

The difference here is the death curse deliberately tosses any limits overboard.  You could accidentally drain yourself to death, maybe, but I'd argue that without the choice to do so, your body's final reserves will go untapped, even as they dwindle to a point where they aren't enough to keep yourself alive.  Your body -- your *life* -- has a lot of energy bound into it that you can't tap into on a daily basis.  A death curse willingly shoves those limits aside, knowing it's your death.

Offline PirateJack

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2016, 07:13:25 AM »
The difference here is the death curse deliberately tosses any limits overboard.  You could accidentally drain yourself to death, maybe, but I'd argue that without the choice to do so, your body's final reserves will go untapped, even as they dwindle to a point where they aren't enough to keep yourself alive.  Your body -- your *life* -- has a lot of energy bound into it that you can't tap into on a daily basis.  A death curse willingly shoves those limits aside, knowing it's your death.

Well, there was a point in Grave Peril where Harry cast a large enough fire spell that his heart stopped beating in his chest. It required actual divine intervention to get it going again.
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Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2016, 08:08:27 AM »
Well, there was a point in Grave Peril where Harry cast a large enough fire spell that his heart stopped beating in his chest. It required actual divine intervention to get it going again.

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Offline PirateJack

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2016, 05:35:43 PM »
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Well, in game terms it could work that way, but in the novel it looks more like an actual Death Curse. Harry uses up all of his regular magic, but he's so angry that he reaches further and his body begins to shut down on him. Sounds pretty Death Curse-like to me.
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Offline RonLugge

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2016, 01:05:49 AM »
Well, in game terms it could work that way, but in the novel it looks more like an actual Death Curse. Harry uses up all of his regular magic, but he's so angry that he reaches further and his body begins to shut down on him. Sounds pretty Death Curse-like to me.

Death curse requires deliberation, and flat out isn't survivable.  It may have been headed into death-curse territory -- but it really was just taking a severe for LOTS of extra oomph to the spell.

Offline PirateJack

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2016, 05:59:09 PM »
Death curse requires deliberation, and flat out isn't survivable.  It may have been headed into death-curse territory -- but it really was just taking a severe for LOTS of extra oomph to the spell.

Harry would have died if not for Michael's intervention, which came through a prayer to God. Also, there was deliberation in the way Harry sought more power, it just wasn't rationally motivated. You've just got to remember that the novels don't align perfectly with the RPG, so while mechanically it would likely have been a severe consequence, in the books it was probably a Death Curse that was cured through the power of God.
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Offline Gaelicwolf

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2016, 06:21:00 AM »
I'd need to re-read the scene, but Harry was pretty clear that the only reason he didn't eat a death curse from the villain in Summer Knight is because said villain was too focused on trying to fulfill her purpose.  If the villain had recognized the futility of that effort and turned on him, he certainly thought she could curse him.  I think you're putting too much emphasis on the power of the mantle, and overlooking that anyone who takes up a mantle of any sort has to have the free will & life energy to do so.

I would argue that traditionally (not going into why that villain might have been able to break rules of their nature), that villain would only have been able to throw a death curse at Harry due to the role he had taken up for that case. It is *explicitly* stated that the villain you are referring to and her peers cannot affect mortals, unless they are under the purview of the Fae, such as having broken a deal with the Fae, or acting as an emissary to the Fae, or (most commonly) becoming a knight of a Fae court. Harry had every right to fear her in that particular moment, as he was acting as an emissary to the Fae and they could affect him (especially in that place of power), but most of the time they cannot use thair magic over a mortal, let alone death curse one. It's the entire reason they have the Knights.

Offline RonLugge

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2016, 04:20:35 PM »
I would argue that traditionally (not going into why that villain might have been able to break rules of their nature), that villain would only have been able to throw a death curse at Harry due to the role he had taken up for that case. It is *explicitly* stated that the villain you are referring to and her peers cannot affect mortals, unless they are under the purview of the Fae, such as having broken a deal with the Fae, or acting as an emissary to the Fae, or (most commonly) becoming a knight of a Fae court. Harry had every right to fear her in that particular moment, as he was acting as an emissary to the Fae and they could affect him (especially in that place of power), but most of the time they cannot use thair magic over a mortal, let alone death curse one. It's the entire reason they have the Knights.

I wouldn't argue that at all (except for the probable intervention of Nemesis).  It's also totally irrelevant to my point: that Fae can, in fact, throw death curses.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Who can death curse?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2016, 08:05:05 PM »
In regard to the original post, if every villain is throwing a huge Death Curse at you, that's just not consistent with the books. A lot of dark wizards and creatures of the night don't think to cast a Death Curse because they're hugely arrogant bastards who don't honestly believe they'll lose or die. Think of Grevane when Ramirez opens up his throat -- instead of realizing he's about to die he just keeps trying to control the zombies.

Vampires, given their whole thing is cheating death, are going to be even moreso. Harry had a solid 30 seconds between actually beating Arianna in their duel and actually killing her, and she didn't fire off a Death Curse because she was in shock and disbelief.

Throwing out a Death Curse, to some extent, requires the humility and realization that you're going to die. The vast majority of supernatural creatures simply are not going to have that.
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