Adjudicating Maneuvers

[Taran]

Yeah, those all sound like maneuvers.  And as I said above, maneuvers are better at targeting different skills than attacks. 

Which makes me think....if I do it the combination method, that will be less likely the case. 

Edit:  although, if luccio has high discipline and low power, she will target skills that are lower(requiring less power) but still hit with her high accuracy/control

Harry can target whatever skill he wants with his massive power but is less likely to control it or hit the intended target. 

[RonLugge]

Yeah, those all sound like maneuvers.  And as I said above, maneuvers are better at targeting different skills than attacks. 

Some of those could just as easily be attacks.  And yeah, your post was kind of contradictory -- do you by any chance not consider manuever spells evocation?

[Mr. Death]

Some of those could just as easily be attacks.  And yeah, your post was kind of contradictory -- do you by any chance not consider manuever spells evocation?

I'd rule them as attacks, but you'd have to invoke something to get around the blocks with skills that normally won't apply.

[Taran]

Some of those could just as easily be attacks.  And yeah, your post was kind of contradictory -- do you by any chance not consider manuever spells evocation?

I think you misunderstood me.  I said attacks can almost always be dodge by athletics.  I can see maneuvers targeting specific skills.  But not only.

Regarding your examples.  If they are physical attacks, then they can all be dodged by althletics. regardless of the fluff, whether it is a gun or a ray of frost

Dodging
Athletics
You can use Athletics as a defensive skill to
respond to physical attacks.

So, by the book, if it is a physical attack, you can respond with athletics.

So, the Hag can move the coin at the last minute, the vampire can move out of the way of the area of cold before he's affected, the person can dodge out of the way of the light, or turn their back very quickly to avoid the flash of light.

That said, I don't see any of these (except maybe the cold) as attacks.  Let me break it down:

That Hag is holding onto the Denarian coin tightly -- trying to take it from her by causing it to become magnetically attracted to your staff is a case of your power vs her (superhuman) strength (might).

No matter how much you attack the hag, and  no matter how much stress you do, the Hag does not have to drop the coin.  Bad guys don't drop their guns when you attack them either.  If you want that to happen, you have to 'disarm' them.  Getting her to drop the coin is probably best dealt with as a compel.

You use magnetism magic to draw the coin towards you.  You use a maneuver to create "disarmed' against the hag, and she resists with Might.  If you are successful, you invoke for effect, if she accepts the compel, she drops the coin.  Maybe, if you have enough overflow shifts, you can draw it right into your hand.

Once again, I could see the argument for rolling athletics.  You target the coin, but she moves out of the way and you miss.

The changeling invokes winter chill to draw body heat away from the white court vampire: resist with endurance (since it's taking the form of a general chill centered on the vamp, you can't really dodge that effectively).

This sounds like an attack.  Centering the chill on the vampire has to target an area inside his body.  Which is hard...when that body keeps moving everywhere.  So the space where his body was is no longer there.  The area gets chilled, but he's not there to be affected by it.

If you did it as a maneuver, I could see you put something like 'shivers' or 'uncomfortably cold'.  which you could tag for a cold attack.  But yeah...this can also be dodged by athletics.  But, maybe, the maneuver could be resisted by endurance

If you want to target endurance, make a scene aspect of 'sub-zero temperatures'.  Invoke it for effect and start having everyone resist environmental damage each round. (of course, this would target the wizard too)

Or, a flash of brilliant light in your eyes could be defended against with alertness (realize what's happening in time to avert your eyes) or endurance (work through the blinding pain)

"Blinded' aspect.  Resisted by alertness or athletics.

That veil that's screwing with your sight?  Use empathy modified by weapons to guess where the enemy is about to go and put a bullet through their knee despite not actually being able to (quite) see 'em (maybe with a single level of disadvantage on this one, but...).

I'd say that's more of a declaration tagged for effect to allow you a perception roll to overcome the veil.  Success means you can attack them.

edit:  I think I misread this.  You mean if your attacks are being hampered by your own veil?  A discussion about this can be covered by its own thread.   Create a navel-gazing maneuver like "TAKE AIM", then attack.  Tag the maneuver to get a +2.  This compensates for some of the block.  This assumes, of course, that the veil is impeding attacks and not just perception.

Once again, let's just ignore this example...it will derail the thread.

[RonLugge]

I think you misunderstood me.  I said attacks can almost always be dodge by athletics.  I can see maneuvers targeting specific skills.  But not only.

The problem is evocation, generally, targets athletics.  It's only, really, Thaumaturgy that let's you target a specific skill.  There's exception, I suppose, and it probably depends on your GM, but for the most part you can dodge any evocation with athletics.  And any evocation that targets discipline has problems with Lawbreaking.

You appear to be contradicting yourself.  As for my examples, some of them (notably the hag) won't ever be stress-dealing attacks.  But some of the others...

"Blinded' aspect.  Resisted by alertness or athletics.

Or it could be intended as a stress-dealing attack, with an effort to inflict a consequence related to blindness.  And while, yes, you can use athletics to dodge it (because that's the catch-all skill), you could *choose* to use other abilities.

I'd say that's more of a declaration tagged for effect to allow you a perception roll to overcome the veil.  Success means you can attack them.

That's... probably a better way to roll with it, actually.  I was running with the concept that veils are just another type of block, roll past 'em to beat 'em.  (Especially since in this case, the smoke was thrown up to try and cover the caster's escape)

[Taran]

You appear to be contradicting yourself.  As for my examples, some of them (notably the hag) won't ever be stress-dealing attacks.  But some of the others...

Like I said, you misunderstood.  Mostly because what I wrote was confusing.

Or it could be intended as a stress-dealing attack, with an effort to inflict a consequence related to blindness. 

I agree, but here's the wrinkle.  The victim of the attack gets to choose what kind of consequence he takes.  He might not choose to take 'blinded' as a consequence.  He might choose to take 'stubbed toe' as he kicks a piece of furniture while dodging the attack with athletics.  Which is what makes Maneuvers better for doing specific things to your opposition because you get to choose the aspect in the case of a failed defense.

And it comes down to invoking.  Just because you inflicted a consequence, it doesn't mean it does anything.  Like the Hag, an attack to get her to drop the coin would depend on 1. taking a consquence; 2. The hag choosing a thematically convenient consequence that might cause her to drop the coin; 3. Choose not to pay off the compel that gets her to drop it.

And while, yes, you can use athletics to dodge it (because that's the catch-all skill), you could *choose* to use other abilities.

Yes, true.  If it seems narratively appropriate to use Might instead of Athletics to defend, then the DEFENDER could choose to do so (with the GM's permission).  The Wizard can't dictate which skill you use to dodge a physical attack since the defender is always allowed to default to athletics.

So, it's likely the Hag would choose Might since she has a Strength Power and the Wizard is trying to wrench a coin out of her hand.  But she could also use Athletics if that skill was better.

This is all beside the point, though, since maneuvers, arguably, target other skills...but they might not... 

Ideally, it'd be better if they could, IMO.

[ironwolf16]

what about adding shifts from the control roll to the power of the spell to resist.  that way power and control play a part.
for example my group is attacking a troll the wizard doesn't think he can hurt it but wants to make it easier for the guy with the sword of the cross to hit the troll and maybe his cop buddy to shoo it with the cold iron bullets.  Declaration slippery feet as he cast ice on the ground under the trolls feet.  he uses 4 power 3 for the maneuver one for sticky.  the control roll gets a fantastic result for +2 so now the troll resistance with athletics 3 but with a target # of 6 now instead of 4. 

this seems balanced to me and now the whole party can use the +2 benefit of slippery feet on the troll to aid in attacks and defense. (with the fist being free)

[Taran]

That just makes the control roll the target because the difference between the power and the control added to the power is always equal to your control roll. 

It would make it interesting for blocks where you can add zone-wide effects and duration.

If you have a power 6 block: 3 for the block, 1 for duration and 2 for zone wide.
Then you get lucky and roll a 7. The extra can be used to boost the block to 4.

[ironwolf16]

I do like that.  or and this may be to powerful but if your control roll beats the power by 2 maybe remove the mild consequence from the spell for evocation?   hmm that actually maybe a bit much but adding on to the spell for power or duration that is a nice fit.