Stunts with AoE effects...?

[Ardrikk]

So, I have a player that keeps wanting to create AoE Stunts and I'm unsure if 1) I'm comfortable allowing them and 2) how they should be costed/structured if I do.

He wants to make a couple Stunts that let him:

1) Cause every bad guy in the area to be forced to attack him with their next action
2) Cause every bad guy who fails an Intimidation vs. Discipline roll to run away

Personally, I think both of those are too powerful as AoE effects.  Magic allows for zone-wide effects, but it costs an extra 2 shifts of power....which, in turn, causes the Wizard more stress or to make a less powerful effect and makes their control roll harder (possibly requiring a Fate point be spent to pull it off).
If I allowed these AoEs at all, I think I'd want them to cost a Fate point to use.

I've already let him take a stunt, from Fate Core, that will allow him to cause one person to spend their next attack against him.  And Intimidation can already be used to try to cow one person, possibly causing them to flee if they lose a Mental (or Social?) conflict.  But the AoE parts just make them really powerful.

General thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

[AgentSchneider]

Maybe instead of automatically succeeding on the action, his stunt instead allows him to place a maneuver on all of the bad guys in the zone with one free tag, but any after the first requiring a FP to tag?

Alternatively you could have it be an extension on the stunt he already has - except that instead of only targeting one person he can make a "spray attack" affecting multiple targets using Intimidation with a +1 or +2 bonus.

Without messing around with the Stunts and limiting the automatically-successful-against-everybody-on-one-roll effect I feel like they are most definitely way too powerful.

[Haru]

Generally, that kind of effect can be done with an "invoke for effect"  (YS99), though that isn't without limitation either.

Looking at your 2 stunts, I think I would allow the first one without a problem, the second one probably not.

The first one could work as a "shout of challenge" or something along those lines. You'd basically do a maneuver to place the "challenging call" aspect on the scene and invoke that for effect to have the people attack him. I wouldn't have a problem with that, but I wouldn't let them attack individually, either. They can either teamwork or put up maneuvers for one of them to attack in full.

The second one reminds me of one of those "save or suck" spells in D&D, and those don't work too well in Fate. It would, more or less, be a forced concession on the part of the NPCs, and you can't do that.
You could do this for minions who aren't too strong, you make an intimidation attack and if you take them out (which should be easy as they are minions), you tell that as them running away. Mechanically, that's already possible against one target, so a stunt to make it zone wide would work. On the other hand, a shout is usually already zone wide at least. Then again, having it and your posture, etc. carry to all those people is still worth a stunt.

Generally, the AoE maths comes down to "2 shifts per zone affected". If you have a scene with 5 zones, you'd need to spend 10 shifts to cover everything. That's quite a natural limiter. All the stunts do is allow you to affect 1 zone for free, an effect that is worth 2 shifts, as a stunt should. You could affect more, but you'd need to pay for those out of your roll.

So, for example, if you want to affect 2 zones with the intimidation stunt, and you roll a 6, everyone would need to roll against a 4, since 2 shifts are gone to cover the zone.


Another option to use "invoke for effect" could be to instigate it by the player and interpret it as a compel on every affected character. Which means if you've got 5 NPCs affected by the intimidating shout, and you force them to run away by compel, that means you as a GM get 5 Fate points for your NPCs. That can make this kind of thing quite a double edged sword, when you can throw around those Fate points later.


And one last thing: You could also model the intimidation thing as a block. For the most part, if he wants to keep people from attacking him, he could put up a block using intimidation, and anyone that attacks him would need to get over the block. If nobody hits him, you can easily describe this as them having scattered, but they will be back, of course (and in greater numbers).

Incidentally, you could model the first one like this as well. It would probably use intimidation as well, but instead of putting a block on yourself, you put up a block on an ally. This would mean that they are intimidated to attack him, anyone who would have attacked will either be caught in the block, or whatever gets through will hit you instead of the protected ally.

I think the block versions would cause the least trouble.

[Taran]

He wants to make a couple Stunts that let him:

1) Cause every bad guy in the area to be forced to attack him with their next action
2) Cause every bad guy who fails an Intimidation vs. Discipline roll to run away

Forgive me for being Emphatic: No, no, no no.

Zone wide, targeted maneuvers are too powerful and I don't even allow them for spellcasting.

You can't do zone-wide maneuvers with magic.  You can only create scene aspects.  If a player invokes that scene aspect for effect, they'd better be ready to reap the rewards and consequences themselves.  You'll notice on page 252 that zone-wide applications only work for attacks and blocks.  They aren't covered under maneuvers.

Spending 1 fp(or a tag) to lay the smack down on multiple enemies is way too much bang for your buck.

Scene aspects are fine, but they can, generally, be used against whoever set them up.  Things like dark, slippery, bad terrain are all double-edged swords.

If you want to target multiple people, do as AgentSchneider suggests and have them be spray attacks.

FYI, Provocation is already a trapping of Intimidate and there is already a stunt for that trapping (Infuriate) that does exactly what he wants:

Infuriate: Scaring people isn’t your forte; seriously
pissing them off, on the other hand, is right
up your alley. Gain +2 to any roll when deliberately
trying to get someone angry with you (a
social or mental attack or a maneuver with such
a goal). Any consequences (such as grudges) or
temporary aspects that result must name you as
the source and target of the anger.

(I bolded the last part - because it's important for what he wants to do with his character)

I use this stunt for a character constantly.  I create an aspect on someone, then invoke for effect to compel them to attack my character.

Or, I put up (as Haru suggested) an intimidation block on all allies except myself.  Making my character the logical choice for an attack.

If I want to hit multiple targets with a maneuver, I use the spray attack rules.

I'd let him take a stunt that lets him get a +1 for each additional person he targets for the purposes of spray attacks. (the bonuses must be spread equally among all targets).

-Regarding Running away.

That sounds like a Take-Out action.  So, he could do an Intimidate as a social/mental attack as part of combat (since intimidate allows that) and a concession or Take Out would be them fleeing from the combat.  But, once again, that would only affect 1 target unless he sprays the attacks.

There also has to be an Imbalance of Power.  So the Boss Bad Guy will, likely, get a +2 to all defenses if he's still got all his mooks defending him.  A being that is immune to physical damage will, likely, be immune to Intimidate as well since he's got nothing to be frightened of.

Doing a maneuver to 'strike fear' in an enemy could be used to compel someone to not attack for a round, or hesitate or, even, go on the full defense for an exchange.  Running away for the entirety of the combat is a bit too powerful.

But a stunt to get a +1 or +2 to strike fear in them is a legitimate stunt.

[Ardrikk]

Thanks for the replies, guys.  I think I'm leaning towards Taran's response.

Here's another Stunt he's proposing; though he admits this form of it needs work.  But I also think it's waaaay too powerful:

"Inspiration:
While your foes flee from you, your allies draw strength and resolve from your presence nearby.
Roll Presence against your allies' Alertness.
For each ally that fails the roll, add a fragile aspect of "Lion Heart," which adds +2 to your allies' next action."

I also told him that, aside from being too powerful, the fact that his allies had to fail a roll to get a benefit was weird.  He said he put that in there as an attempt at a balancing factor for the power of the effect.

[Taran]

Thanks for the replies, guys.  I think I'm leaning towards Taran's response.

Here's another Stunt he's proposing; though he admits this form of it needs work.  But I also think it's waaaay too powerful:

"Inspiration:
While your foes flee from you, your allies draw strength and resolve from your presence nearby.
Roll Presence against your allies' Alertness.
For each ally that fails the roll, add a fragile aspect of "Lion Heart," which adds +2 to your allies' next action."

I also told him that, aside from being too powerful, the fact that his allies had to fail a roll to get a benefit was weird.  He said he put that in there as an attempt at a balancing factor for the power of the effect.

Just have him do a presence maneuver.  Presence is the skill that 'commands' and 'Leads'.

He creates an aspect like "Rally Call", "Boosted Morale", "inspirational Words". (against a fixed difficulty - depending on the situation  - or, if applicable, against an enemy's defense - like a Bosses Presence or intimidate)

He allows his allies to tag it and after the first tag, his allies have to spend FPs.

That said, there are ways to create extra tags:

A stunt:  When you create an aspect that boosts morale, your allies get an extra tag if one or more enemies has suffered a consequence/is fleeing/is Taken Out/Has conceded.

In other words, create a situation where, if met, they get an extra tag.

House Rule:  Lots of GM's award extra tags for success.  So, if he beats the difficulty by 3 shifts, award him an extra tag on the aspect.

Combine the effects:  a stunt that gives him a bonus to create an aspect + a stunt that gives extra tags + a house rule to give extra tags could lead to many tags.

[Ardrikk]

Just have him do a presence maneuver.  Presence is the skill that 'commands' and 'Leads'.

He creates an aspect like "Rally Call", "Boosted Morale", "inspirational Words". (against a fixed difficulty - depending on the situation  - or, if applicable, against an enemy's defense - like a Bosses Presence or intimidate)

He allows his allies to tag it and after the first tag, his allies have to spend FPs.

That said, there are ways to create extra tags:

A stunt:  When you create an aspect that boosts morale, your allies get an extra tag if one or more enemies has suffered a consequence/is fleeing/is Taken Out/Has conceded.

In other words, create a situation where, if met, they get an extra tag.

House Rule:  Lots of GM's award extra tags for success.  So, if he beats the difficulty by 3 shifts, award him an extra tag on the aspect.

Combine the effects:  a stunt that gives him a bonus to create an aspect + a stunt that gives extra tags + a house rule to give extra tags could lead to many tags.

Lots of great advice and suggestions!  Thanks again!

[Ardrikk]

House Rule:  Lots of GM's award extra tags for success.  So, if he beats the difficulty by 3 shifts, award him an extra tag on the aspect.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm already using Fate Core for Dresden, with bits of Dresden still in there (the entire magic system, of course, as well as the idea of tied attacks still doing Weapon damage, etc.).

So if he does a Manuever/Creates an Advantage and succeeds with Style (3 or more shifts), he would automatically get an extra free tag.  I had to reread the Create Advantage rules to remind myself of that, though, as my players haven't started taking advantage of the Maneuver/Create Advantage action very much yet.

[Mr. Death]

The options I usually go with are either A. creating an aspect on yourself or B. creating an aspect on the scene, either of which you could tag for effect to act on others.

For instance, maybe you make an Intimidation maneuver on the scene to say you're "The Baddest Monkeyfighter In The Room," you could tag that to make the enemies focus on you.