Looking to limit wizard power thread.

[RonLugge]

I'm not sure Ambush is a good balancing factor.  Ambushes can kill anyone, pretty much.  In fact wizards, provided they've built a 'block against attacks' enchanted item, are probably best suited to survive an ambush.  They get ambushed, their item gets triggered as a defense.  Meanwhile, their party is all defending at 0.  And, unless, they have toughness, they're not any better equipped than the wizard.

Hrm... never really thought about it, but I typically assumed you'd need to be able to react to use an EI.  You have a point, that some shouldn't need that though.

That said, part of the point of my comment is that Wizards -- more than any other 'class' in the game -- are narratively best attacked from Ambush.  In the books, it's repeatedly pointed out that taking a wizard on face to face is just plain stupid.  You take them out by flanking them, surprising them, and outmaneuvering them.

[PirateJack]

You could argue that only armour held as a defensive item would trigger on defence, since Enchanted Items usually require an action to activate. That goes counter to what was printed in Paranet Papers, however, so do what you will.

[Sanctaphrax]

That reminds me, removing the reflexive activation option on defensive enchanted items is a very good way to weaken Wizards.

That said, part of the point of my comment is that Wizards -- more than any other 'class' in the game -- are narratively best attacked from Ambush.  In the books, it's repeatedly pointed out that taking a wizard on face to face is just plain stupid.  You take them out by flanking them, surprising them, and outmaneuvering them.

Mechanically speaking, I haven't found this to be noticeably truer for Wizards than for anyone else.

[RonLugge]

Mechanically speaking, I haven't found this to be noticeably truer for Wizards than for anyone else.

That... surprises me.  Wizards are able to throw up insane block values and become effectively immune in a fight with relative ease, for example.  Combine that with throwing out insanely high weapon values with incredible accuracy, and they are pretty nasty customers.  Doubly so for dedicated crafters, who benefit 'doubly' from refinements/focus items thanks to not needing both power and control.  A wizard whose given a few rounds to get his defenses in place is a wizard who has become nigh-invincible.

Example:  Weapons 4, Discipline 4, Conviction 5 wizard with a +2/+2 defensive focus.  Cast a defensive spell using your fourth stress box, you can summon up 10 shifts of power total.  You need to roll +4 to control all of it, or take stress as backlash.  Second round, use your third stress slot to summon up 9 shifts of power to extend your spell.  You are now 'immune' to attacks that don't reach at least 10, which requires a +4 if the enemy has a skill cap of 6 and has filled that with their offensive power, and that lasts for 9 rounds.  Spend 8 of those rounds attacking with a sword with virtual impunity, and reinforce your shield as needed with your two remaining mental stress boxes.  Or just use your awesome offensive power to force a few consequences on the enemy first, making it easier to wear them down with the sword.

[Taran]

I think what he is saying is that ambushes are nasty to pretty much everyone equally.  If you get ambushed, you are screwed and it doesn't much matter who you are.

And crafters are the best suited to defend against ambushes so, in my personal experience, ambushing a crafter is completely futile.

Regarding your example, a wizard who is spending rounds putting up blocks and extending them is not attacking, which makes them less deadly despite being temporarily invincible. 

I'd just ignore the wizard for 8 rounds and focus on his buddies.   Or do maneuvers for 8 exchanges, then, on the 8th tag all the maneuvers.  And to make the example fair, let's give the opponent equal refresh to the wizard.  Athletics 4, supernatural speed, mundane armour etc... Toughness and recovery.  The wizard isn't nearly as useful anymore attacking with that sword.   Hell, or just have the guy go full defense until the duration of the spell runs out.

The guy is dodging at +8.

Now, ambush both these characters.  They are both dodging at +0.   The wizard probably has a block item and the other guy has toughness.  The crafter laughs and laughs and laughs. 

Edit:  I'm taking this post from another thread to accentuate a point:

Yeah, I had a game once where the party bruiser was rolling from 14 with alarming regularity.

That group really took to the whole teamwork and maneuvering thing. It was pretty spectacular.

So, by round 3 the bruiser hits the wizard with a +13 attack (by attacking at +7 and tagging 3 aspects), and obliterates the wizard's shield.  Now the wizard has no shield and has used up his 3rd and 4th mental box, taken backlash and has yet to do anything useful in the fight (except, maybe soak up some action from his opposition).

[RonLugge]

Some good points.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, I haven't found shield spells terribly useful. Using enchanted item defenses seems like a better bet.

A really good Crafter can have that +10 defense without spending any actions or any mental stress. And it won't fold after being hit.

[vultur]

I think at least up to Submerged level, highly optimized physical characters can compete quite well with highly optimized wizards in combat.

For example:
Changeling
Superb Weapons
Superb Athletics
Good+ Endurance

Stunt - Swordsman: +1 on attacks with large swords [-1]

Supernatural Speed [-4]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
   The Catch: cold iron [+3]

Item of Power: Highland Claymore, Weapon:3 [+2]
   True Aim [-1]
   Inhuman Strength [-2]
   
Total Refresh Cost: -7; Remaining Refresh: 3

That gives you Epic attacks at Weapon:5, Epic defense, and 8 physical stress boxes+Armor:2 against non-iron/steel attacks. And you still have 2 "free" refresh to add a ranged attack to the sword, or something.
 
EDIT:

Molly uses a sleep spell as an Evocation in Ghost Story.

The Gatekeeper does it too in Turn Coat.

[RonLugge]

What is true aim?

Edit:

N/M, found it.  It's one of the sub powers of the Sword of the Cross, granting +1 weapons when 'swung with keeping with it's purpose'.