Looking to limit wizard power thread.

[Sanctaphrax]

If you nerf control accuracy items, then a wizard won't bother maxing out control because you'll be throwing around a lot of low shift attacks.

Using it in concert with that other houserule does make it work better. I still don't like it much, though; it infringes on the narrative authority of the players and it doesn't actually do much to make magic weaker. Like I always say, the Laws aren't a good balancing factor.

[narphoenix]

Isn't a Sleep spell done via Thaumaturgy and/or as a Block? Thus it wouldn't really have a Weapon Rating?

Molly uses a sleep spell as an Evocation in Ghost Story.

[blackstaff67]

Using it in concert with that other houserule does make it work better. I still don't like it much, though; it infringes on the narrative authority of the players and it doesn't actually do much to make magic weaker. Like I always say, the Laws aren't a good balancing factor.

I'm looking to do this due to the make-up of my group: two wizards/focused Practitioners, a home-brewed Jade Court Vampire (martial artist--Fists of Fury!), a were-Temple Dog and a vanilla mortal ex-Marine.  Mind you, in last session, both wizards got hit pretty hard and took tough consequences...

[RonLugge]

Also, while it doesn't directly target a wizard's being stronger than the rest of the party, don't forget narrative balance.  Wizards are a walking glass cannon -- enemies are likely to try to take 'advantage' of that by hitting them by surprise, then focusing their firepower on the wizard to burn him down.  That's going to force the wizard to direct a certain degree of his power to defensive purposes.

[Taran]

I don't find wizards to be glass cannons at all.  Maybe that's true in d&d but not in Dresden.

If you equip your wizard with suitably powerful defensive items, they won't get hurt much. 

[blackstaff67]

I don't find wizards to be glass cannons at all.  Maybe that's true in d&d but not in Dresden.

If you equip your wizard with suitably powerful defensive items, they won't get hurt much.

This.  I have no problem with this because I emphasize free will in my games and that includes the ability to make poor choices.  The wizards in my game hadn't bothered with potent defensive enchanted items and it cost them dearly in the most recent fight. 
I also give my players credit for common sense and I presume they have the ability to learn.

[Hogeyhead]

How long has this game been going on? Are you sure that the game needs a re balance? If you still feel it does the easiest way to nerf wizards, is to alter the length of a scene. You barely change the rules at all, but if a scene lasts like half a session, and it takes that long for them to erase stress, they will very quickly learn that to conserve resourses is now a must, and they will learn to approach problems in other ways, perhaps magic is not always the best option as it is suddenly not something that can be leaned on boundlessly.

If you do do this, do nothing else to magic, or you will quickly have players who a: hate you, b: want to change characters mid game. All because you added house rules to an ongoing game.

Tread with extreme caution if you wish to keep your players.

[blackstaff67]

How long has this game been going on? Are you sure that the game needs a re balance? If you still feel it does the easiest way to nerf wizards, is to alter the length of a scene. You barely change the rules at all, but if a scene lasts like half a session, and it takes that long for them to erase stress, they will very quickly learn that to conserve resourses is now a must, and they will learn to approach problems in other ways, perhaps magic is not always the best option as it is suddenly not something that can be leaned on boundlessly.

If you do do this, do nothing else to magic, or you will quickly have players who a: hate you, b: want to change characters mid game. All because you added house rules to an ongoing game.

Tread with extreme caution if you wish to keep your players.

Six full sessions.  Next session will see the group's first Significant Milestone.  As the entire group is still getting a grasp on the rules, I feel it's still relatively early in the campaign where I can do this.  I anticipate no real objections. 

[Hogeyhead]

Oh, by all means. Hell once I switched to a new rules set mid campaign including a few very serious houserules. I should note that this did lose me a player  though. I should note that I don't regret my decision, though I do regret how I handled it. Personally I left things without fixing them for too long, and the player that left was actually a huge problem, and part of the reason I didn't change things right away. This does not appear to be the case with you, that's very good, and fiddling with rules is part of the GM's job.

My point however is to not go overboard. In my opinion it would be fine to nerf focuses (people will stop using them very much, but that's fine), or do what I suggested and force stress to last longer in some way. However doing both would be over board. Doing both and nerfing specialization in the same way, would be far too much. One thing to remember is that wizard is a massive investment, and if you take away everything that makes -7 refresh (and a few other things) worthwhile then you may get resentment.

If you do want to implement many nerfs then I would recommend implementing them one at a time, let a story play out and see what happens, see how one nerf plays, then if you still feel more is necessary, implement another, until satisfied. This way you can also gauge if your houserules are affecting the fun of the players most directly affected.

Anywho sorry if I came across strong, this is just something that I've seen, I've done, I've been on the receiving end, and it can really affect some people. It's really good that it's only six sessions in.

[Taran]

In my opinion it would be fine to nerf focuses (people will stop using them very much, but that's fine)

Why would nerfing foci stop people from using them?  They still provide bonuses.

We did it in our game and I have 3 focus items that boost my spellcasting.  The difference is it doesn't double my spellcasting power/control.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't find wizards to be glass cannons at all.  Maybe that's true in d&d but not in Dresden.

If you equip your wizard with suitably powerful defensive items, they won't get hurt much.

That's a big if, though. Wizards who are bad at crafting can be genuinely glass-jawed.

Anyway, I've seen a few games where a wizard ends up way stronger than the other PCs because of differences in optimization. It's possible that the problem here is more optimized character vs non-optimized character than wizard vs non-wizard. You might be able to mitigate or solve the problem with a few tweaks to the sheets of the non-wizards.

Not saying you shouldn't houserule; that'd be ridiculously hypocritical of me. But it's worth looking at other options too.

[RonLugge]

I don't find wizards to be glass cannons at all.  Maybe that's true in d&d but not in Dresden.

If you equip your wizard with suitably powerful defensive items, they won't get hurt much.

And if you're equipped with powerful defensive items, you can't have as many powerful offensive (or utility) items.  Or, as I stated above, just have the enemy attack the wizard by surprise.  Rolling at 0s on defense, with no enchanted item options, is...  pretty nasty in general, and doubly so for a wizard.

[Taran]

And if you're equipped with powerful defensive items, you can't have as many powerful offensive (or utility) items.  Or, as I stated above, just have the enemy attack the wizard by surprise.  Rolling at 0s on defense, with no enchanted item options, is...  pretty nasty in general, and doubly so for a wizard.

yeah, sorry, I missed that part in your last post where you'd mentioned 'power into defense removes power from offense' bit.

I'm not sure Ambush is a good balancing factor.  Ambushes can kill anyone, pretty much.  In fact wizards, provided they've built a 'block against attacks' enchanted item, are probably best suited to survive an ambush.  They get ambushed, their item gets triggered as a defense.  Meanwhile, their party is all defending at 0.  And, unless, they have toughness, they're not any better equipped than the wizard.

But I see what  you're saying: wizards can be dangerous - take them out first.  I tend to be defensively focused with every wizard I play.  I just figured most people were like that.  I find that I have plenty of oomph left over to obliterate the opposition.  Just, maybe, not with the same frequency as an offensively focused wizard.

[blackstaff67]

yeah, sorry, I missed that part in your last post where you'd mentioned 'power into defense removes power from offense' bit.

I'm not sure Ambush is a good balancing factor.  Ambushes can kill anyone, pretty much.  In fact wizards, provided they've built a 'block against attacks' enchanted item, are probably best suited to survive an ambush.  They get ambushed, their item gets triggered as a defense.  Meanwhile, their party is all defending at 0.  And, unless, they have toughness, they're not any better equipped than the wizard.

But I see what  you're saying: wizards can be dangerous - take them out first.  I tend to be defensively focused with every wizard I play.  I just figured most people were like that.  I find that I have plenty of oomph left over to obliterate the opposition.  Just, maybe, not with the same frequency as an offensively focused wizard.

Yeah, I never fail to make a wizard with at least one defensive enchanted item a la 'Harry's Duster' or the like in play--enchanted shoes that bestow a one or two-shot Athletics is also good.  I wouldn't make a Warden PC/NPC without at least one such item.

[Mr. Death]

I had a wizard PC in one group who had a set of boosts that were set to create a defensive aspect, granting a burst of speed he could tag for dodging.

Personally, I'm of the camp that highly encourages compels to limit wizards' power, because that's a lot of what limits Harry in the books.