Current DR wardens

[Lawgiver]

It is my opinion that when Harry descends down all those steps and enters the chamber down at the bottom, he has gone down the rabbit hole and in most respects *is* on the NN side of Demonreach. 

I say in most respects because Demonreach was created and exists on a dimensional level that Harry has a hard time experiencing, so when he's down there his experience is kinda skimming the surface of a pond of what is actually there NN wise without necessarily getting wet.

I haven't followed this conversation closely, but let me share a little more of my opinion of who and what a capital "W" Warden is and why it is significant.  As with most of my theorizing over the past few years, this is heavily influenced by my concepts of overall DF cosmology, and the mortal experience's position in and influence over that cosmology.

The entirety of the Demonreach construct was created on and exists on a level that spans more than just Harry's individual reality and timeline.  It is immense and powerful and enduring and ... Lithic.  What do I mean by "Lithic?"  It exists as is and is non-introspective and unchanging in its purpose, function, and resolve. 

But on the Demonreach level of the big picture, the fabric of Reality has a degree of malleability, and the driver and medium of this malleability is mortals and their free will.  For Demonreach to function on this malleable level of existence, it needs a malleability engine of its own.  A Warden capital W, with free will who can make decisions that encompass aspects of its purpose that require more malleability, dynamism and introspection than it possesses on its own as a Lithic construct. 

It is possible that Demonreach's existence is wide enough that it interfaces with more than one discrete "Capital W Warden" across multiple discrete realities and timelines on the level Harry experiences in such a way that from Harry's and thus our perspective, these interactions happen relatively "simultaneously" and individually.  However, I think it is more likely that from the Demonreach perspective, these malleability engines are less discrete and are more of a reality spanning singularity like itself.  Sort of.

Which is a really long and arduous way of saying that in my theories there is only one capital "W" DR Warden. 


Edit:  I'd like to add that I'm really proud of the two analogies of Harry experiences in the NN being like skimming a pond without getting wet (not getting the full depth of the experience, only an aspect of it), and Warden Harry's free will being an "malleability Engine" for the overall Demonreach construct.

Interesting concept.  Let me see if can simplify it a little?  This will probably be a bad analogy but.. what the heck.

DR is a tool; a rather sophisticated one, but a tool nonetheless.  It has no "free will" and therefore cannot take many actions independently.  It has a certain amount/number of "preprogrammed" functions it can perform, but operation of other possible functions beyond those is out of its control.

Let's say DR is like a chainsaw.  This tool cannot determine when to cut, how fast to cut, how deep to cut, etc.  It takes a Lumberjack to use it properly.  The capital L signifies a free willed individual, not the preprogrammed operations already set up.  Any monkey can pick up a chainsaw and cut wood... it takes a Lumberjack, someone knowledgeable and skilled in the use of that tool, to make carvings of horses or castles out of lumber.

Given DR's extremely sensitively dangerous nature, "There can be only one" when it comes to Wardens (as opposed to wardens).

[Serack]

When I was considering my theory post during my car drive to work, I was considering the tool/craftsman analogy as well.  One of the sticking points though was that Demonreach the tool is so much vaster than something that can be wielded by a craftsman. 

It appears to have actions it can take (mostly passive) without free will, and it appears to be on a higher level of existence than the "craftsman/Warden." 

Perhaps a better analogy than a tool/craftsman would be an Unmanned Arial Vehicle drone surveillance/weapon system platform and it's operator.  I was an enlisted Army Intelligence operator a little over a decade ago when UAVs were just starting to get pushed out to the line units (I literally got out 2 months after my Division got theirs {non weaponized} delivered, and those were disseminated to the brigade level), and I was heavily involved in the command's training involving how these systems were utilized.  These are complex systems and there were many aspects of their operation that are automated, not unlike Demonreach.  Although I doubt it happens regularly because people like to have their hands on these types of things, and in doing so can generally get higher value intel out of them, my experiences back then implied that these things could do surveillance missions completely automated.  However, when it comes time to pull the trigger on one with a weapons system, you better believe there is a person doing the actual operation.

Apparently there is an aspect of this discussion that I didn't address.  It seems evident that long ago, among the community of Wizards, there was a "Warden" singular who was responsible for Demonreach.  Since that day, the actual duty has apparently fallen into general obscurity, yet in the mean time, the community of Wizards has had a need for militant enforcers of the Laws of Magic, and that body collectively and individually bares the same name.  How the Demonreach "Warden" and the enforcer "warden" came to share the same name is lost to us the reader, but it seems Demonreach is aware of the connection, as he acknowledges it.  However, since Harry wore the grey cloak for years before he became Demonreach's Warden, and we have seen "wardens" do battle on Demonreach without having similar connections to the island, the meaning and significance of the two terms seem to have become severed from each other.

[Phariah]

wonder if the Circle up top that Harry uses to summon Mab was involved. suppose that is part of it's use. summon the being and than entrap them. maybe the last few Warden have not been top rate and it fell to a grp to take up the policing but on a smaller level.

[Dashkull]

wonder if the Circle up top that Harry uses to summon Mab was involved. suppose that is part of it's use. summon the being and than entrap them.

That has been a theory i've thrown around before, and I am a big fan of it. One of the questions I had about the prison overall is who was badass enough to actually get all those creatures to Demonreach and trap them there, since the Island itself cannot go out and actively do it. That is where the Warden probably comes in as well. Merlin was badass but even he couldnt routinely whistle up dark gods and subdue them. But that circle, by far the most impressive empowered circle we have heard about in the DV, would go a long way to helping a Warden trap things.

I even pictured a theoretical future scene (for fun) where Harry summons Chauncy (sp) using the circle of beauty and threatening to lock him up forever if he doesnt give out the information Harry needs about his mom. Then Chauncy getting all lippy so Harry throws him in crystal with a very satisfying and spiteful ease and being like "neeeeeeext". Kinda like the scene in Firefly where Malcolm tries to give back the money he got for doing the train job when he refused to do the job and kicks the minion into Serenity's engine intake. The next guy is VERY willing to take Mal's offer after seeing that.

[kazimmoinuddin]

While they could summon, the powerful entities potentially ignore the summons. The power of the island, and the darkness of the power, could be enough force and affinity allow for no summon to be unanswered. It is one thing for a creature to be summoned, it is another for them to be bound. So once brought to the island, the island and warden would be forced to fight. Admitted on the island, the warden has access to great power, but fighting well worth beings will allays be tricky.
 If summoned, would they only be brought to the surface or into the well? It does not seem secure to bring an unbound prisoner into the cell block.

[Dashkull]

While they could summon, the powerful entities potentially ignore the summons. The power of the island, and the darkness of the power, could be enough force and affinity allow for no summon to be unanswered. It is one thing for a creature to be summoned, it is another for them to be bound. So once brought to the island, the island and warden would be forced to fight. Admitted on the island, the warden has access to great power, but fighting well worth beings will allays be tricky.
 If summoned, would they only be brought to the surface or into the well? It does not seem secure to bring an unbound prisoner into the cell block.

Having the proper bait to get the beings to the island is probably that tricky part. As for binding the creature once its there. Demonreach apparently had the power to grab and bind a (more or less) full-powered Mab once she was physically standing on the island. DR has some chops. Of course the beings worth imprisoning on the island will have a lot of power too, and will definitely fight back. But Demonreach's power in such a conflict would be so much greater than Harry's that he would probably factor very little into the fight. IIRC correctly, Harry said something to the effect of wanting to be somewhere over the horizon if DR started swinging in earnest against an enemy.

Unless he had a Name to work with, or something. Or, maybe there is something in the islands architecture that we dont know about for such a fight, like weaponizing the stones from the cottage that repelled shagnasty. The real question is whether or not we will ever actually get to see such a fight. I really really hope so .

[Lawgiver]

It seems evident that long ago, among the community of Wizards, there was a "Warden" singular who was responsible for Demonreach.  Since that day, the actual duty has apparently fallen into general obscurity, yet in the mean time, the community of Wizards has had a need for militant enforcers of the Laws of Magic, and that body collectively and individually bares the same name.  How the Demonreach "Warden" and the enforcer "warden" came to share the same name is lost to us the reader, but it seems Demonreach is aware of the connection, as he acknowledges it...

I find it interesting that such an important facet of WC history is "lost" or "fallen into general obscurity"...

Wizards live much longer than mortals, so their tendency to lose information over time should be commensurately reduced.

The "average" mortal life expectancy (even when factoring in regional fluctuations) is currently around 75-ish years, with high end outliers at a century or more.

Wizardly "top end outliers" seem to be about 400 years (Ancient Mai and any like her).  If the ratio above holds with Wizards of the "average" being at roughly 3/4ths of the top end... then Wizards should have an average life expectancy of about 300 years -- right about at 4x as long as mortals.

Merlin created DR (put the multi-temporal aspect aside for now).  Arthurian Lore - including Merlin - occurred somewhere in the 250A.D. to 500A.D. timeframe.  That's ~1500 years ago.  For mortals that would be more than 20 generations, but for Wizards it's only about 5 to 6.

5 - 6 mortal generations would be roughly the time of the American Revolution or shortly afterwards.

Why would Wizards, notorious information gathers and hoarders, "forget" something like DR - or anything about it.  We haven't forgotten big events from the Revolutionary period.

Seems to me that someone's hiding information about this - which, of course, Wizards are also known for.  Rashid and Eb both seemed shocked and a little disturbed when they found Harry had done a Sanctum Invocation there... I presume they were aware of DR - what it is for, etc. - and of what Harry had actually done...

Maybe it's only Senior Council who knows... "need to know only" and all that...

I'm more of the opinion that instead of "losing" knowledge re DR, they've deliberately separated themselves from it for some odd reason.  There hasn't been a singular Warden in a long time because they haven't wanted there to be.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop... but I think the idea might have some merit... I just don't have any good data to base it on.
/sigh

[raidem]

I'm of the belief that what we see of Demonreach is only the tip of the iceberg in this time, this reality.  I don't believe Merlin created it all but placed his enchantments on a pre-existing construct.  Perhaps some manner of this prison already existed and Merlin with the help of some greater powers linked a mortal gateway to this existing construct.  The Demonreach we perceive only exists in some subset of timelines, and realities.

I once and maybe still do believe Demonreach is realities belly button.  Its placement on Earth is what makes Earth the center of the universe for the inside outside war, at least for the subset of realities that are germane to our story.  There is a woj that suggests that in some realities Earth isn't the center point for the war but another place in the universe is.  For those realities, I believe a similar belly button exists at those priority locations.

So, in summary, when some "God" created the dresdenverse there was something resembling a umbilical cord where the wall between inside and outside was the thinnest.  Its at those locations in the metaverse that things become 'wierd'.

[Serack]

I find it interesting that such an important facet of WC history is "lost" or "fallen into general obscurity"...

Wizards live much longer than mortals, so their tendency to lose information over time should be commensurately reduced.

The "average" mortal life expectancy (even when factoring in regional fluctuations) is currently around 75-ish years, with high end outliers at a century or more.

Wizardly "top end outliers" seem to be about 400 years (Ancient Mai and any like her).  If the ratio above holds with Wizards of the "average" being at roughly 3/4ths of the top end... then Wizards should have an average life expectancy of about 300 years -- right about at 4x as long as mortals.

Merlin created DR (put the multi-temporal aspect aside for now).  Arthurian Lore - including Merlin - occurred somewhere in the 250A.D. to 500A.D. timeframe.  That's ~1500 years ago.  For mortals that would be more than 20 generations, but for Wizards it's only about 5 to 6.

5 - 6 mortal generations would be roughly the time of the American Revolution or shortly afterwards.

Why would Wizards, notorious information gathers and hoarders, "forget" something like DR - or anything about it.  We haven't forgotten big events from the Revolutionary period.

Seems to me that someone's hiding information about this - which, of course, Wizards are also known for.  Rashid and Eb both seemed shocked and a little disturbed when they found Harry had done a Sanctum Invocation there... I presume they were aware of DR - what it is for, etc. - and of what Harry had actually done...

Maybe it's only Senior Council who knows... "need to know only" and all that...

I'm more of the opinion that instead of "losing" knowledge re DR, they've deliberately separated themselves from it for some odd reason.  There hasn't been a singular Warden in a long time because they haven't wanted there to be.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop... but I think the idea might have some merit... I just don't have any good data to base it on.
/sigh

Jim has made this (the highlighted point) before.  Also, Rashid was almost a contemporary with the original Merlin (due to NN time distortion I believe, he has been around the longest, but isn't necessarily the oldest).  Don't forget that information about the island seems to spontaneously disappear from official vanilla data bases, although it is possible there is some White Council or other body conspiring to see that this happens.  So yah, this is a need to know thing, that is likely very hush, hush otherwise, or at least the Warden position might be.

Minor Cold Case info:  There is a snippet in Cold Case where we find out there is some, generally widely wizardly known information that Harry is totally ignorant of because it is customarily only discussed at the tail end of the established apprenticeship program and he skipped the apprenticeship program all together. 

So it is really tough for us to gage how much of this is generally unknown, and how much is widely known, but is unknown to Harry and thus to us.  It could be that everybody knows that the "warden's" legacy is that there originally was "one" Warden, and the organization came to be to emulate the original or something, but since Harry is such an untrusted, uneducated outsider, he was ignorant of that, and had to be told by Demonreach.  Jim is kind of limited in how information is disseminated to us the readers, and this isn't helped by the fact that some of this information is deliberately being held from us until the appropriate time (if ever) for dramatic effects.

[Lawgiver]

My only question about the whole thing is... why would the WC separate itself from DR? Going from a single Warden, with all the power/potential DR represents, to multiple wardens of far lesser potential (though greater range of influence/activity) seems like a very important step.  I can hardly image what exigencies prompted them to it.

[Serack]

My only question about the whole thing is... why would the WC separate itself from DR? Going from a single Warden, with all the power/potential DR represents, to multiple wardens of far lesser potential (though greater range of influence/activity) seems like a very important step.  I can hardly image what exigencies prompted them to it.

I see the reason as two fold.

• The DR Warden mantle is so Oh S***! powerful and dangerous that the leadership on the council probably prefers to see it left vacant unless there is some dire need otherwise.  Merlin seemed to have gone rather ape when he took it up after all.
• Judging by what some more informed people said to Harry before he got the full job description, it's not likely a fully informed and sane person would take up the position voluntarily.

The Gatekeeper's comments about "a bit of questionable attention from the Fates," as well as some of Jim's comments about the Blackstaff being chosen based off of who is willing to put up with the horrible ethical nightmares it comes with imply to me that filling these enigmatic Capitalized White Council positions is problematic. 

[madness]

I see the reason as two fold.

• The DR Warden mantle is so Oh S***! powerful and dangerous that the leadership on the council probably prefers to see it left vacant unless there is some dire need otherwise.  Merlin seemed to have gone rather ape when he took it up after all.
• Judging by what some more informed people said to Harry before he got the full job description, it's not likely a fully informed and sane person would take up the position voluntarily.

The Gatekeeper's comments about "a bit of questionable attention from the Fates," as well as some of Jim's comments about the Blackstaff being chosen based off of who is willing to put up with the horrible ethical nightmares it comes with imply to me that filling these enigmatic Capitalized White Council positions is problematic.

I always got the feeling that the White Council sort of gets the powerful and secret wizard positions (Gatekeeper, Blackstaff, Warden of the Well) chosen for them for multiple reasons.

1)  they require unique and uniquely powerful wizards.

2)  the White Council hides their existence from its own members so most prospects are those who either stumble upon the positions or seek them out against the will of the White Council.

3)  greater powers tend to get involved (the Fates, whoever maneuvered Harry to the island, etc.)

4)  the types of wizards crazy enough to willingly take on these roles are not likely to be yes men or strictly uphold White Council doctrine.

If I had to guess I would say that probably nearly as many people had strokes when Eb took up the Blackstaff as did when Harry took up the mantle of the Warden of the Well.

[kazimmoinuddin]

It might be easier to take down known monsters for the island. We know it has contained 6 skinwalkers, do using the knowledge of how to deal with, make it easier to capture others. The presence of others already, might even ease the summoning and binding of more.

[Beldon]

I always got the feeling that the White Council sort of gets the powerful and secret wizard positions (Gatekeeper, Blackstaff, Warden of the Well) chosen for them for multiple reasons.

1)  they require unique and uniquely powerful wizards.

2)  the White Council hides their existence from its own members so most prospects are those who either stumble upon the positions or seek them out against the will of the White Council.

3)  greater powers tend to get involved (the Fates, whoever maneuvered Harry to the island, etc.)

4)  the types of wizards crazy enough to willingly take on these roles are not likely to be yes men or strictly uphold White Council doctrine.

If I had to guess I would say that probably nearly as many people had strokes when Eb took up the Blackstaff as did when Harry took up the mantle of the Warden of the Well.

Side note: is the WC fully aware of what Harry did or still just rashid eb and listens to wind?
I like the idea that they just blunder into these positions or are forced to actively seek them.

[madness]

Side note: is the WC fully aware of what Harry did or still just rashid be and listens to wind?
I like the idea that they just blunder into these positions or are forced to actively seek them.

The Senior Council is aware that Harry claimed the island since three of them were there during the battle during Turn Coat.  It was clear that Ancient Mai did not know about the Well or Harry being the Warden (she just thought that Harry claimed some dark island), Listen's to Wind never indicates one way or another if he knows the island's true purpose and Eb's journal entry makes its clear that both Eb and Rashid know the true purpose of the island and implies that Langtry knows as well.

Vadderung says that the Grey Council members who showed up at Chichen Itza were aware of the island's purpose and that they knew that Harry was the Warden of the Well.

Knowledge of the island's true purpose seems to take 'need to know' to an entirely different level.