Making and populating a city in NeverNever

[Mojosilver]

I don't know if this has been done before. But I thought it might be fun to make a city that's not in the mortal world, and make building and populating it a group thing. So who do you think would live in this city? What do you think this city would look like? What powers/groups are in this city? Well if I'm starting this I should throw out some ideas.
Places:
The Hill.  Where rich and powerful go to be above it all.
Goblin Mart. A mega mall where anything can be bought and/or sold.
God street. If it's worshiped by some one it has a temple here.
Groups:
The Cops. Keeping the Peace through superior firepower.
Hero's of Hire. The cops can't solve every problem, so hire a hero to take care of your problems.
Biohazard. Magic and mayhem can be messy. But don't worry Biohazard will clean up the mess.

[Taran]

Space and time may not matter in this city. 

Maybe some doors are on the ceiling, maybe clouds are a building material, maybe you walk into someone's home and it's a huge expansive meadow.

I think the best thing is to determine the themes of the city then do some creative things.

-What is on the mortal side of this city? That will influence what's in the city
-Who is(are) the boss(es)?  If it's part of their own private demesne, it will affect the makeup of the city.

If it's a metaphysical crossroads you have lots of options for stuff.

Slave trade might be a big thing.  Where supernatural predators buy and sell mortals.

Really, the sky is the limit.  Depending on gravity. 

[Mojosilver]

A theme for the city, HMM. How about it's the spiritual representation/avatar of the big city. London, Hong Kong, New York, eta. It is influenced and connected to all of them. It is the good, the bad, and everything that a big city is. But still something magical. Something that exists in Nevernever. How about that?

Taran I wouldn't say the sky is the limit, But your imaginations are. Anything!

[Griffyn612]

Your premise is very similar to Shadows Fall and Nightside by Simon R Green.  Shadows Fall has a street of the gods, if I recall.  There's another section between the two that's a market, and Nightside itself mirrors London, with connections to it.  The market is more like Gaiman's Market Afloat in Neverwhere, which is similar to the supernatural market under New York in Hellboy.  The two are what I modeled the Undertown Market on in my short stories.

I like the idea of something tying the supernatural communities together.  We talked about a restaurant sitting on the border between Summer and Winter a while back that catered to both.  But the whole place would basically need to be accorded neutral ground.

[PirateJack]

Make it Michigan during the time it was stolen by Unseelie Fae.

[Mojosilver]

Griffyn612 I am familiar with Simon R Green's Nightside. It had a street of gods to, as did Glen Cook's Garrett, P.I.
It seems to be a common theme. I like the idea of places that supernaturals would gather to do business or have fun. And the troubles that would come from having so many groups in one place.   

PirateJack While that is a possibility. I see this city as something that will stay in Nevernever. Perhaps when Michigan was sent back. Something of the city remained and that is what created/grew into this city. 

Thank for the ideas. Please keep them coming.

[Griffyn612]

Griffyn612 I am familiar with Simon R Green's Nightside. It had a street of gods to, as did Glen Cook's Garrett, P.I.
It seems to be a common theme. I like the idea of places that supernaturals would gather to do business or have fun. And the troubles that would come from having so many groups in one place.   

PirateJack While that is a possibility. I see this city as something that will stay in Nevernever. Perhaps when Michigan was sent back. Something of the city remained and that is what created/grew into this city. 

Thank for the ideas. Please keep them coming.

It'll take a lot of power to sustain such a place in the Never-never.  Otherwise, it'll end up inconsistent and two-dimensional like Agatha's demesne.  Which means either a bunch of powers all contribute a little, or someone big contributes a lot.  And such an expenditure requires a purpose.

The only issue I see with a street of gods is that, in the Dresdenverse, what would be the point?  If there are no mortals in the city, there's no-one to worship the gods. 

[Mojosilver]

It'll take a lot of power to sustain such a place in the Never-never.  Otherwise, it'll end up inconsistent and two-dimensional like Agatha's demesne.  Which means either a bunch of powers all contribute a little, or someone big contributes a lot.  And such an expenditure requires a purpose.

The only issue I see with a street of gods is that, in the Dresdenverse, what would be the point?  If there are no mortals in the city, there's no-one to worship the gods.

Why would someone have to sustain something in Never-never? Well if that's what it needs. How about it draws power from all the big cities in the world? As for why there's a city in Never-never. Well why not. Unlike the real world where someone has to build a city for there to be a city. No one has to do anything for there to be something in the Never-never. It is not simple a magical place, but it is magic. We are dealing with a magical realm where anything is possible. As for who's in charge of the city. Well I see something like the deferent factions of the Dresdenverse in a city counsel sort of thing. As for why they would invest in the city. A city in Never-never would be quite valuable for some and others would not want there enemy's to have control of it. Now for your final question. Who would worship the gods at god street. Why can't monsters pray. Why can't mortals live in Never-never. Sure the idea mite horrify Harry, But to use Nightside as a example. John Taylor never liked live in the normal London and despite the Hollow trying to kill him came back to the Nightside. Suzie Shooter felt that the Nightside the one place she belonged. Heck even Cathy Barrett despite nearly getting eaten by that house stay in Nightside. My point being that if people are willing to live in Nightside why not Never-never. Look I realize that to simple say it's magic is weak story telling. That not being able to explain something is bad story telling. And that your tired of hearing "why not". But sometimes it is not about how can that happen, but why couldn't that happen? So again I say why not and thank you for reading this. 

[Griffyn612]

Why would someone have to sustain something in Never-never? Well if that's what it needs. How about it draws power from all the big cities in the world? As for why there's a city in Never-never. Well why not. Unlike the real world where someone has to build a city for there to be a city. No one has to do anything for there to be something in the Never-never. It is not simple a magical place, but it is magic. We are dealing with a magical realm where anything is possible. As for who's in charge of the city. Well I see something like the deferent factions of the Dresdenverse in a city counsel sort of thing. As for why they would invest in the city. A city in Never-never would be quite valuable for some and others would not want there enemy's to have control of it. Now for your final question. Who would worship the gods at god street. Why can't monsters pray. Why can't mortals live in Never-never. Sure the idea mite horrify Harry, But to use Nightside as a example. John Taylor never liked live in the normal London and despite the Hollow trying to kill him came back to the Nightside. Suzie Shooter felt that the Nightside the one place she belonged. Heck even Cathy Barrett despite nearly getting eaten by that house stay in Nightside. My point being that if people are willing to live in Nightside why not Never-never. Look I realize that to simple say it's magic is weak story telling. That not being able to explain something is bad story telling. And that your tired of hearing "why not". But sometimes it is not about how can that happen, but why couldn't that happen? So again I say why not and thank you for reading this. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to a city in the Never-never.  But I do think it has to have an origin and purpose.

In the Dresdenverse, the Never-never is basically magical potential without shape.  The places we've seen are all shaped to purpose.  Either by mortal belief or supernatural control, they're given shape.

Now what if we said that this city of yours was a culmination of mortal belief in a lost city?  In the Dresdenverse, Atlantis was a real place.  I forget which story mentions something in context of, " not since the fall of Atlantis". 

But even if Atlantis was real, it's not tied to what humans dream of.  So maybe all of that human fascination with lost and legendary cities like  Atlantis and Mu and Camelot and El Dorado and Shangri-La found a home in the Never-never, where a city with features of each formed from the combined belief in them?

Human faith would seem to have power in the Dresdenverse, and supernatural beings would likely fight over it for themselves.  But with no way to associate themselves with the legends, they'd be left with using the city for their own purposes. 

Now, in regards to humans living in the Never-never, we know that they can't live there and consume things from there and remain human.  That's established in the books.  If a human stayed there long enough, they'd slowly lose themselves.  In an ancient WoJ on the subject, JB said that as humans eat things from the Never-never, their cells are replaced by Never-never cells from Never-never nourishment.  So if they ever went back to reality, where Never-never material turned into ectoplasm... So would they.

[PirateJack]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to a city in the Never-never.  But I do think it has to have an origin and purpose.

In the Dresdenverse, the Never-never is basically magical potential without shape.  The places we've seen are all shaped to purpose.  Either by mortal belief or supernatural control, they're given shape.

Now what if we said that this city of yours was a culmination of mortal belief in a lost city?  In the Dresdenverse, Atlantis was a real place.  I forget which story mentions something in context of, " not since the fall of Atlantis". 

But even if Atlantis was real, it's not tied to what humans dream of.  So maybe all of that human fascination with lost and legendary cities like  Atlantis and Mu and Camelot and El Dorado and Shangri-La found a home in the Never-never, where a city with features of each formed from the combined belief in them?

Human faith would seem to have power in the Dresdenverse, and supernatural beings would likely fight over it for themselves.  But with no way to associate themselves with the legends, they'd be left with using the city for their own purposes. 

Now, in regards to humans living in the Never-never, we know that they can't live there and consume things from there and remain human.  That's established in the books.  If a human stayed there long enough, they'd slowly lose themselves.  In an ancient WoJ on the subject, JB said that as humans eat things from the Never-never, their cells are replaced by Never-never cells from Never-never nourishment.  So if they ever went back to reality, where Never-never material turned into ectoplasm... So would they.

That's a great idea, but I've got a different take on it.

There is a city in the Nevernever that has always existed. It was there before the first vampire was created, the first sidhe born, the first angel fell to Earth. Neither Heaven nor Hell, it is something different yet similar, occupying that same thoughtspace that all universal concepts fall into. When the first mud huts were built in ancient Africa, their builders dreamt of this. When wood replaced mud and stone replaced wood, each idea was taken from this one, ideal city.

If you were to visit this city you could find yourself in a replica of a tribal village in one moment then transported to a scene straight out of a science fiction film. Every building, every town, every city ever conceived was based on something from this one, monolithic city. Yet if that is the case, why does everyone dream of this place? What connects it to mortal minds and what reason does it have for sending these visions in the first place?

My pet thought here is that the city is alive. It's the first genius loci, immensely powerful, and it's trying to have mortals build enough parts of it in their realm so that it can breach through the barrier between Earth and the Nevernever, manifesting itself in the mortal plane. Could make for an interesting end game scenario. How do you defeat a living city?

[Griffyn612]

That's a great idea, but I've got a different take on it.

There is a city in the Nevernever that has always existed. It was there before the first vampire was created, the first sidhe born, the first angel fell to Earth. Neither Heaven nor Hell, it is something different yet similar, occupying that same thoughtspace that all universal concepts fall into. When the first mud huts were built in ancient Africa, their builders dreamt of this. When wood replaced mud and stone replaced wood, each idea was taken from this one, ideal city.

If you were to visit this city you could find yourself in a replica of a tribal village in one moment then transported to a scene straight out of a science fiction film. Every building, every town, every city ever conceived was based on something from this one, monolithic city. Yet if that is the case, why does everyone dream of this place? What connects it to mortal minds and what reason does it have for sending these visions in the first place?

My pet thought here is that the city is alive. It's the first genius loci, immensely powerful, and it's trying to have mortals build enough parts of it in their realm so that it can breach through the barrier between Earth and the Nevernever, manifesting itself in the mortal plane. Could make for an interesting end game scenario. How do you defeat a living city?

It's very much a Green city.  But I'm not sure how well it fits into the Dresdenverse.  We don't yet know if the deities of that earth are aspects of reality, or simply the manifestations of human faith.  Most likely both.

As for that idea versus the idea proposed by Mojo, the two don't have to necessarily be the same.  One is a quest location, where folks could go to face something that's been drawn there, or taken up residence.  Or fight the manifestation of the city itself.  But I'm not sure that it's the everyday setting that Mojo seemed to be going for.  At least, that's the way I'm interpreting what you're describing.  Maybe I'm way off base.

[Griffyn612]

Running with this (and probably beyond annoying at this point) I'm toying with an idea for an entire realm of the Never-never formed by human belief in mortal lands of legend.  Emphasis on mortal, as they're not tied to specific pantheons, and therefore are independent of them.

Just like there's a Faerie, and it's broken into different realms of Winter, Summer, and Wyld Faerie, there could be a (smaller) realm of cities.

Below is a collection of mythological cities and lands that aren't directly tied to other religions.  I left out Hell, Heaven, Hel, Asgard, and anything else that were the dwellings of gods and the dead (other than Brittia, which I think has potential).

This Realm could house a city like what Mojo is describing, as well as a city like what PJack is describing.  Mojo's city could be one where mythological beings took up shop, and even started giving it additional shapes and purposes of their own.  PJack's could be based on a (seemingly) more tenuous belief in the concept of Society manifesting as a sentient city mirroring both real world architecture and that of the human imagination.

If you want a dark city to quest to, you can have Thule, a once glorious city based on human mythology, but which was twisted by darkness in the last hundred years when humanity's perceptions of it changed under Nazi influence. 

If you want to quest for a city of riches, there could be an isle with numerous cities - or one city with districts - of gold (El Dorado), silver (Sierra de la Plata), amber (Baltia), riches (Ciudad Blanca), and plenty (Cockaigne) sitting beneath a mountain of gold and a mountain of diamond (City of the Casears).

If you want a city of wisdom, I'm sure you could do something with Dinas Affaraon (druidic/alchemic home) and Atlantis (rumored to have advanced tech) and Mu and Lemuria (continents like Atlantis that pre-date mankind, but are often considered superior).

(click to show/hide)

Arcadia - Pastoral utopia
Agartha - Subterranean city in the earth's core
Atlantis - Lost city with crstal tech and ties to water
Avalon - Island of apples, resting place of Arthur
Baltia - Island of amber
Brasil / Hy-brasil - Mythical island west of ireland
Brittia - Mythical island off the coast of Austra, souls of the dead
Camelot - Arthur's capital
City of the Casears - mythical city below a montain of gold and a mountain of diamond
Cockaigne - City of plenty
Dinas Affaraon - Druidic/alchemic city of power/ambrosia
El Dorado - Mythical city of gold
La Ciudad Blanca (White City) - City of riches
Lemuria - Mythic lost continent
Mu - Mythic lost continent
Paititi - Inca lost utopia land/city
Quivira & Cibola - 2 of Seven Cities of gold
Sierra de la Plata - Treasury of silver
Shangri-La - Harmonious valley
Thule - Mythic island of origin

[Mojosilver]

Thanks for the info and Great ideas. As to what I want this city to be. Honesty I just wanted a city in the Never-never. And I thought it be fun to get the DFRPG forum involved. Whether it is a place a Group can live, or a place that is visited from time to time. It really dos not mater to me. Perhaps sharing how I came to the idea of there being a city in Never-never mite better put things into context. My gaming group was made of modded D&D characters. (Sanctaphrax Thanks again for helping mod them. ) They made the money by going into Never-never. Sometimes they where guides, sometimes they'd find rare items, and sometime they'd get things back. (kidnaped child that turned out to be half-fae and the kidnaper was her father.) So now even though my groups is taking a break from DFRPG I still get ideas for adventures and I decided to share this idea with the DFRPG forum and see what everyone thought of it.

Now, in regards to humans living in the Never-never, we know that they can't live there and consume things from there and remain human.  That's established in the books. If a human stayed there long enough, they'd slowly lose themselves.  In an ancient WoJ on the subject, JB said that as humans eat things from the Never-never, their cells are replaced by Never-never cells from Never-never nourishment.  So if they ever went back to reality, where Never-never material turned into ectoplasm... So would they.

Wow! I don't know that. Thanks!