Always on Enchanted items

[Sanctaphrax]

There are probably places you can walk into with the vest where the hoodie would be inappropriate, though.

My inclination would be to say that the hoodie is harder to get than the vest, and not as protective as similarly hard-to-get mundane armour.

[Haru]

Not necessarily. You can use the kevlar vest rules for Harry's jacket. Wouldn't even be a houserule.

Sure, that was where I was going with this. It kind of seems like a houserule though, as magical effects have specific rules attached to them, so I would be inclined to use those first, at least when I'm fairly new to the game.

[Taran]

I don't see what Duration is an issue.  Mundane Armour 2 is a resource 4 or 5 purchase?  Always on armour.

An Armour 2 item that lasts for 2 exchanges is the same cost (Power 5).  And it's affected by a threshold.  And adding duration is part of the game.

I suppose there could see balance issues if you allow full blocks with duration, given that crafting can give ridiculous numbers.  Block 8; for 3 exchanges could give a wizard a huge advantage or, even, make them unassailable and you can probably get that in a Chest Deep game.  Although, there's precedence in the book where Harry creates a crystal, when broken, that protects Molly and Thomas for the whole scene.  But getting that kind of Power out of an item at Chest deep will, probably, take most of your foci.  In a submerged game, I think block 8 is less of an issue to overcome.

But, then again, this is coming from a guy who has taken crafting foci out of his games, so massive, impenetrable blocks is less of an issue.

[dragoonbuster]

I don't see what Duration is an issue.  Mundane Armour 2 is a resource 4 or 5 purchase?  Always on armour.

An Armour 2 item that lasts for 2 exchanges is the same cost (Power 5).  And it's affected by a threshold.  And adding duration is part of the game.

I suppose there could see balance issues if you allow full blocks with duration, given that crafting can give ridiculous numbers.  Block 8; for 3 exchanges could give a wizard a huge advantage or, even, make them unassailable and you can probably get that in a Chest Deep game.  Although, there's precedence in the book where Harry creates a crystal, when broken, that protects Molly and Thomas for the whole scene.  But getting that kind of Power out of an item at Chest deep will, probably, take most of your foci.  In a submerged game, I think block 8 is less of an issue to overcome.

But, then again, this is coming from a guy who has taken crafting foci out of his games, so massive, impenetrable blocks is less of an issue.

Hm, reasonable points.

As far as the Crystal item--I consider that more as justification for that group to be able to justify Conceding the conflict while staying on the island, since they were completely removed from combat by activating it. Probably would build it as a Maneuver that you tag for effect.

[Hogeyhead]

Okay! So two questions. 1: I have a lore of 5 and a specialization in item power. Could I make a sword that gave me +3 to weaponry (or whatever) and then use 3 shifts for duration making it last 4 full turn thingys (whatever they are called in this system I can never remember). Then spend another enchanted item slot to make the item usable for four rounds, three times per session?

Question 2: Lets say I have My Lore at 5 and my specialization in item power, and I craft all my items. Great. Now what happens if I then use a minor milestone to switch my Lore to 4? I assume if the reverse happened my items wouldn't automatically get stronger (say I did it in a session that lasted 2-3 hours in game and the previous session lead directly in, and the next followed directly), so if I lose a point of lore do my items automatically weaken?

[Mr. Death]

The advantage of the enchanted items is you can take them places you couldn't bring a flak jacket -- plus, Harry's coat covers him from neck to ankles, while a bullet proof fest only covers the chest, stomach and back.

Hell, I've had players whose armor items were things like necklaces, even.

They can also be much, much more powerful than mundane protection. A heavy-duty bomb suit is probably Armor:3, 4 at the most, and it's bulky, obvious and unwieldy.

A wizard or crafter with enough specializations and Lore could be just as protected wearing a windbreaker.

[Taran]

Okay! So two questions. 1: I have a lore of 5 and a specialization in item power. Could I make a sword that gave me +3 to weaponry (or whatever) and then use 3 shifts for duration making it last 4 full turn thingys (whatever they are called in this system I can never remember). Then spend another enchanted item slot to make the item usable for four rounds, three times per session?

Question 2: Lets say I have My Lore at 5 and my specialization in item power, and I craft all my items. Great. Now what happens if I then use a minor milestone to switch my Lore to 4? I assume if the reverse happened my items wouldn't automatically get stronger (say I did it in a session that lasted 2-3 hours in game and the previous session lead directly in, and the next followed directly), so if I lose a point of lore do my items automatically weaken?

Q1
enchanted items do not give you a bonus to a skill.  They replace a skill check.

So your weapons roll would be the power of your enchanted item. (no dice roll).  So a power 5 weapons skill replacement would be an accuracy 5 attack with whatever weapon you're using.  It's good for a single roll, then it goes away.

Q2.
Each session, you are assumed to 'refresh' your items. so the items value would change to reflect your New Lore skill.  That said, a GM might allow any unused slots to stay at their former values (for better or worse)

[Hogeyhead]

Q1
enchanted items do not give you a bonus to a skill.  They replace a skill check.

So your weapons roll would be the power of your enchanted item. (no dice roll).  So a power 5 weapons skill replacement would be an accuracy 5 attack with whatever weapon you're using.  It's good for a single roll, then it goes away.

Not that I don't believe you, I do (unfortunately), however could someone confirm this? You do not get a bonus to a skill roll (it would have been nice if that was more explicit in the book, oh well). What about armor? That's an object, so does the magic not stack with the existing armor, or could you say have an armor of 1 and a magic bonus of +2 and get three? Or would the magic just make it 2 negating the items inherent protection for a superior (magic) armor rating. I would just like to be sure about these points before I bring it up at the next session.

[Theogony_IX]

Okay! So two questions. 1: I have a lore of 5 and a specialization in item power. Could I make a sword that gave me +3 to weaponry (or whatever) and then use 3 shifts for duration making it last 4 full turn thingys (whatever they are called in this system I can never remember). Then spend another enchanted item slot to make the item usable for four rounds, three times per session?

Given your example here, I don't think the rules really support duration separate from uses.  While there isn't anything in the rules that prohibits duration, allowing it seems to allow a crafter to double dip . . . as your example above shows.  You create a multiplicative effect turning what should be around 18-20 shifts of effect into 36 shifts of effect (3 shifts for 4 exchanges 3 times), and no stress spent.

I think duration is meant to be modeled by uses.  A person can always narrate the effect as something continuous though despite its mechanical application.  Even Harry's duster has limits.  When it runs out of uses, maybe the duster's limits were exceeded or things sneaked through an open fold.

Question 2: Lets say I have My Lore at 5 and my specialization in item power, and I craft all my items. Great. Now what happens if I then use a minor milestone to switch my Lore to 4? I assume if the reverse happened my items wouldn't automatically get stronger (say I did it in a session that lasted 2-3 hours in game and the previous session lead directly in, and the next followed directly), so if I lose a point of lore do my items automatically weaken?

That would be up to the GM.  Narrative justification could be arranged to allow for the increased or decreased effect.  Or, because it affects something static, the GM could ask that your skill change be delayed until your character has the time to work on his/her items.

[dragoonbuster]

Not that I don't believe you, I do (unfortunately), however could someone confirm this? You do not get a bonus to a skill roll (it would have been nice if that was more explicit in the book, oh well). What about armor? That's an object, so does the magic not stack with the existing armor, or could you say have an armor of 1 and a magic bonus of +2 and get three? Or would the magic just make it 2 negating the items inherent protection for a superior (magic) armor rating. I would just like to be sure about these points before I bring it up at the next session.

Armor doesn't stack with other sources of armor, regardless of the combination of Toughness, mundane armor, or magic Armor.

And yes, I can confirm Taran is right about skill replacement spells--they replace your skill for a roll, not add a bonus. This may be THE most mistaken part of the rules, no thanks to Evil Hat's bad potion examples. So-called "skill replacement spells" are just applying the fact that you can use Thaumaturgy to create a spell whose Power substitutes for a skill roll. Substitute being the key word there.

[Taran]

I got beat by a few people but since my post is done...

For armour, you don't stack the bonuses.  You just take the highest value.  I think there's an exception to that rule with one of the Endurance stunts that lets you have armour against blunt attacks.  That's the only case I know of being able to stack armour.

Skill replacement...man...

I'm not sure where it specifically says you don't get bonuses.  There's been a few threads where the developers said as much, I think.  The non-beta book probably clarifies it.   You definitely can not add bonuses to skills.

The exception would be creating an aspect.  You could have a 6 shift item create 2 aspects which you can tag.  Which, RAW, is acceptable but many GM's ban it or restrict it.  The reason is at higher levels, you can have an enchanted item give you 4 aspects which you can tag willy nilly.  Gaining 4 aspects for a single action is powerful.  Not just the +2 tags, but also the re-rolls and the narrative power it can extend.

I think, in one game I'm playing, we ruled that you could create multiple aspects but you could only tag them one/turn for given roll...or something.

Given your example here, I don't think the rules really support duration separate from uses.  While there isn't anything in the rules that prohibits duration, allowing it seems to allow a crafter to double dip . . . as your example above shows.  You create a multiplicative effect turning what should be around 18-20 shifts of effect into 36 shifts of effect (3 shifts for 4 exchanges 3 times), and no stress spent.

The other thing to remember is that thaumatugry is meant to achieve a specific result/goal.  Like making a curse, or answering a question with a divination, there's no need for duration...it either succeeds or it doesn't.  It's the same for a weapons attack spell.  Once  you attack, the spell works (you hit) or it doesn't (you miss).  But then it ends.  So duration doesn't come into play.  You can't make your weapons skill +10 for 5 exchanges with a single spell.

[Hogeyhead]

Alright guys thanks a lot. Actually I originally thought that enchanted items din't provide bonuses based on what I had read, but I was overruled by my GM, who read the same (physical) book differently I suppose. This clarifies everything about enchanted items. Just one question about armor while we're on the subject. Does the armor bonus from inhuman (or otherwise) toughness stack with actual armor, or is it like the magic items?

[dragoonbuster]

I'm not sure where it specifically says you don't get bonuses.

It doesn't specifically say you can't get bonuses anywhere because it shouldn't have to. Thaumaturgy outlines how a spell is built and can replace a skill--there is no provision for how to make a spell to give a bonus to a skill, whereas the mechanics are in place to replace it for a roll--the Contest rules. The only place where bonuses to skills w/ magic is discussed is in the potion examples, which are god-awful and shouldn't be referenced, period. If you want to get several rolls in a row replaced, then you have to add the replacement for each roll up--for instance, if you wanted three Fight replacement rolls at Great (+4) you wouldn't need just 4 power +2 shifts for more duration, you'd need 4 power x 3 rolls = 12 shifts.

I think we 'discovered' this a couple months ago, but this is the only way you can get multiple replaced skill rolls with one spell.

The non-beta book probably clarifies it.

It does not, unfortunately.

Does the armor bonus from inhuman (or otherwise) toughness stack with actual armor, or is it like the magic items?

Not per the RAW, no. Armor doesn't stack with other armor, excepting the one blunt damage stunt.

[Hogeyhead]

It doesn't specifically say you can't get bonuses anywhere because it shouldn't have to. Thaumaturgy outlines how a spell is built and can replace a skill--there is no provision for how to make a spell to give a bonus to a skill, whereas the mechanics are in place to replace it for a roll--the Contest rules. The only place where bonuses to skills w/ magic is discussed is in the potion examples, which are god-awful and shouldn't be referenced, period. If you want to get several rolls in a row replaced, then you have to add the replacement for each roll up--for instance, if you wanted three Fight replacement rolls at Great (+4) you wouldn't need just 4 power +2 shifts for more duration, you'd need 4 power x 3 rolls = 12 shifts.

Wait. Does this mean that veils created by potions only last one round? Or that what if I want a veil at say 4 for say 4 rounds I would need 16 shifts of power? I think the rules specify otherwise. A veil replaces a roll of stealth... Or does this mean that the 1shift duration thing only applies to evocation? If so what about anchored wards? I would appreciate clarification.

[Hogeyhead]

Wait I've re-read your post and I realize I misunderstood.

Lets say then that I have a magic item that replaces my initiative x frequency per session. Does each frequency last a scene (say an entire fight) or a round? So if x is 4 and the fight lasts 5 rounds on the fifth round the item would be used up.