Sponsors and debt

[blackstaff67]

I was going over Paranet Papers when I realized something: If a PC is actually performing a mission.favor for the Sponsor, does he still accumulate debt drawing upon the Sponsor's powers (avoiding consequences, invoking an Aspect w/o a Fate Point, etc) in the performance of said mission.  It all just seemed rather kinda counter intuitive for me:  "Do this thing for me.  If you draw upon my powers (as stated above), you'll go into debt just as if you were off the clock doing stuff." 

Second question: If a PC accumulates debt, how many allow self-compels towards the Aspect (but without awarding Fate Points) so teh PC can voluntarily pay some of it off?  I kinda see Dresden doing this with Winter's Mantle on him.

[Taran]

1.  Yes they still accumulate debt. 

This is how I see it: A carpenter owes you a favour, so you ask him/her to renovate your bathroom.

That is the equivalent of taking a compel to do a mission for your sponsor.

During the renovation, the carpenter uses your tools.  They eat the food out of your fridge and they use your car to go get supplies.  These are all things above and beyond what a contractor would do for a renovation. 

You've hired them for their expertise and they usually use their own resources(tools) and expertise to finish a job.  But, if they ask you to cover their lunches the entire time, they're going to owe you.

2. If you compel a player to do something, and it fits the sponsor, I think it's legal to have the player say "I don't want a fp.  I want it to go towards my debt."

In the same vein, if you allow self-compels, I see no reason why they can't self-compel and, instead of receiving a fp, have that compel pay off debt.

[Lonelylurker]

2. If you compel a player to do something, and it fits the sponsor, I think it's legal to have the player say "I don't want a fp.  I want it to go towards my debt."

In the same vein, if you allow self-compels, I see no reason why they can't self-compel and, instead of receiving a fp, have that compel pay off debt.

If you *don't* have any debt right now, but the sponsor has something it wants from you, could it offer 'credit'(i.e. fee use(s) of it's power in the future) as incentive?

[Taran]

If you *don't* have any debt right now, but the sponsor has something it wants from you, could it offer 'credit'(i.e. fee use(s) of it's power in the future) as incentive?

I'd just call that a compel on the sponsored aspect.

"Hey, can you do me a favour?  we're buds after all"

Offer Fate point.

Now you have a fate point to invoke your sponsor aspect to do what you'd normally do with sponsored debt.  Or to invoke it to gain some other 'favour'.

[wyvern]

^ What Taran said.  (I had a whole post typed out, but got sniped.  Oh well.)

[Lonelylurker]

I'd just call that a compel on the sponsored aspect.

"Hey, can you do me a favour?  we're buds after all"

Offer Fate point.

Now you have a fate point to invoke your sponsor aspect to do what you'd normally do with sponsored debt.  Or to invoke it to gain some other 'favour'.

That could also work, but allowing the sponsor to issue compels even when you're 'paid up' seems like a big extra liability. So I was trying to mirror the debt mechanic where resisting costs an FP but doesn't reduce the debt.

[Taran]

That could also work, but allowing the sponsor to issue compels even when you're 'paid up' seems like a big extra liability. So I was trying to mirror the debt mechanic where resisting costs an FP but doesn't reduce the debt.

I'm pretty sure that's how it already works.

Sponsor says:  'go do this'  and offers a compel.  If you accept, you get a fp.

During the quest, you can spend fp's or go into debt. 

If  you go into debt then, the next time the sponsor says "Hey, go do this"  You can accept (and gain no FP but pay off a point of debt) or say "no thanks" and pay off the compel with a FP.  If you pay it off, you still owe a point of debt since you didn't actually pay the sponsor back yet.

[Lonelylurker]

According to YS:287 it looks like that's only true while you have an aspect or consequence in on you effect as a result of using the sponsors magic.

[Taran]

No, that's something different.

Let's say I have a High Concept of "Hell's Hand on Earth"  (I'm thinking of the Evil Realm of Hell filled with devils...just as a general example)

So, you are going to get compels based on that aspect.  Doing missions, forwarding Hell's goals, acting in a way that makes Hell happy.  But you have free will, so you can accept or turn those down.

When you take debt, you will continue to get those kinds of compels, but you won't get any FP's for them.

When you take a consequence based on your sponsor: like a mental consequence from casting, the flavour of that consequence has to reflect the sponsors influence on you.  This is separate from debt.  You can still gain a FP from these compels but the colour of the compel might be to push you more towards turning you.  It just gives additional leverage for your sponsor by giving more aspects to compel and allowing them to compel more specific actions.

So just because you are Hell's Hand on Earth, it doesn't mean you like it but you do it because of the arrangement you have - and those compels can be a bit more general.  But if you take a moderate mental consequence of Thoughts of Slaughter and Sin, those compels are going to be very specific and might push you closer to Hell's side...

That's how I see it.

[wyvern]

More to the point, if you have a sponsored magic and you do not have a related aspect that could be compelled even without sponsor debt - well, I don't really see that as a legal character build.  (With the possible exception of Soulfire as of the Paranet Papers revision - with its stress track and lack of sponsor debt, and the 'it makes you more of what you are' thing going, I don't see it as necessarily needing a separate aspect.)

[Taran]

Well, more to the point, Harry might not have had an aspect that gave him Hellfire - since gaining it was an accident (or a compel)...but any consequence or debt that he took once he had it gave lasciel extra leverage on him.

[Haru]

To be fair, charging someone to work for her sounds exactly like something Mab would do. And I don't think most of the other big players would play a different game. The price might be smaller when you're "on the clock", but not necessarily.

[blackstaff67]

Now you have a fate point to invoke your sponsor aspect to do what you'd normally do with sponsored debt.  Or to invoke it to gain some other 'favour'.

Wait, you can spend Fate Points to invoke Sponsored Magic like that?  Avoid consequences, stuff like that?

[dragoonbuster]

Wait, you can spend Fate Points to invoke Sponsored Magic like that?  Avoid consequences, stuff like that?

If you have Sponsored Magic, you should have an aspect covering that fact. You invoke the aspect...Sponsored Magic works like the rest of the game's rules with aspects, the only difference is you can charge to your Sponsor's FP "credit card" and go into their Debt occasionally. So if the Aspect fits with the invocation you're attempting...of course you can invoke it.

[RonLugge]

Well, more to the point, Harry might not have had an aspect that gave him Hellfire - since gaining it was an accident (or a compel)...but any consequence or debt that he took once he had it gave lasciel extra leverage on him.

As a friend pointed out to me, harry keeps his 'Tempted by Power' trouble through the entire series for a reason.  That's the aspect that ties into his Hellfire.  He's tempted by it's power -- yes, he's trying to do the wrong thing, but tapping into hellfire is still a bad idea.

It's a pretty weak aspect to represent it, but that also touched on his 'accidental' and 'involuntary' access to it.  If he'd used it enough / willingly enough, eventually he may have been forced to change another aspect to represent it.