One more bit on Thaumaturgy...

[Lonelylurker]

A Circle wouldn't be a block because you can do other things while you're protected inside it. They naturally last until dawn unless battered down

In OW:30(about the only place Circles are specifically mentioned oddly enough) it directs you to YS:276, which is where it talks about Wards.

[Taran]

yeah...maybe...but that sounds more like a thaumaturgical ward.  and besides, a ward works as a block anyways - not a maneuver - and it can be battered down.

[Lonelylurker]

Yeah, I think the best representation is to call it a very simple ward that anyone with Lore can attempt to create.

[Haru]

Don't forget that a circle does a very specific thing: it keeps magical energies out. And it does so absolutely. It's not like the better you are at drawing circles, the more energy you block out. A ghost or any other spiritual being can't just push through a circle if they are powerful enough, that's not how it works. So assigning a number to a circle like that doesn't make any sense. Rolling for it with lore doesn't make sense. If someone told me "draw a circle to protect you from magical energies", I don't need to increase my lore to know that.

What the lore could help with is to correctly identify the threat. Is this normal fog or something magical? If you're successful, you know it's magical and you decide to put up a circle. In this incident, the salt might be an aspect, but it might just be that it's buying out of a compel that chalk might not stick to the Walmart floor.

On the other hand, a circle is incredibly brittle to anything physical. A supernatural being with any physicality to it will simply walk through it and break it, making way for its supernatural part. For those, you would need a block, a ward, a full blown containment ritual, however you may want to call it, anyway.

Not to mention, it's not really interesting inside a circle. Whatever was after you is still out there and will probably just go after someone else. If it's a ghost, maybe they'll just inhabit someone or something and cross the circle and go from there. Maybe the circle is just your way of doing a concession, you're taking yourself out of the conflict with the spirit being.

[Taran]

Yeah, I think the best representation is to call it a very simple ward that anyone with Lore can attempt to create.

an on-the-fly ward is pretty powerful.  That's something that you need evothaum for.  Or, if your GM let's you do a 'ritual at your lore' ward in combat time.

I wouldn't allow a Pure Mortal do a Ward that lasts until sunrise.  I might allow him to do a small circle that would last for a scene (ie: a maneuver - since maneuvers last a scene) and let him invoke it.  This could be overcome by enemies in a variety of ways.

Or I'd allow a block that lasts one exchange - given the right knowledge and materials - which he could renew every round, like any other block. 

Not to mention, it's not really interesting inside a circle. Whatever was after you is still out there and will probably just go after someone else. If it's a ghost, maybe they'll just inhabit someone or something and cross the circle and go from there. Maybe the circle is just your way of doing a concession, you're taking yourself out of the conflict with the spirit being.

I don't know if I agree with this too much.  Butters keeping a beat going while Harry rode Sue could be a pretty exciting conflict in and of itself.

I would set this up as an extended test: Butters vs the Zombies.  If the zombies win, they get through his circle and now he has to stop drumming - which ends bad for Harry.

It's not boring to do a block with guns against an enemy, so I don't know why it'd be boring to do one with Lore or Conviction.  It's just a different narrative. 

Don't forget that a circle does a very specific thing: it keeps magical energies out. And it does so absolutely.

I'm not sure.  Harry was pretty worried that he might not be able to contain Erlking.  There was a lot that could have gone wrong.  I'm not sure Butters could have made a tiny circle around himself hoping to keep the Erlking off him.

Mechanically, I see it that Harry set the block high enough.  Or, he put an aspect in to the complexity and invoked it or whatever.  But wards/circles can be overcome: by overcoming the block or paying off the compel.

[Mr. Death]

I don't even think you'd need a maneuver for this. If you know how to draw a circle, it's not like you need an art degree to do it.

Drawing a circle isn't the part you need the maneuver for. You need the maneuver to power it with magic.

Put it this way -- around Dead Beat, Butters' Lore was probably, at most, 1 or 2. Would you trust a 1 or 2-shift effect to get anything done? Probably not. So you do the quick maneuver of cutting for blood, tag it for a +2. Now you're looking at a common ritual rolled from 3 or 4 instead.

[Lonelylurker]

On the other hand, a circle is incredibly brittle to anything physical. A supernatural being with any physicality to it will simply walk through it and break it, making way for its supernatural part. For those, you would need a block, a ward, a full blown containment ritual, however you may want to call it, anyway.

Circles keep out/contain embodied creatures; The zombies were possessed corpses, possession by a ghost should work the same way. The Erlking and Chaussy were in solid ectoplasmic bodies when they were contained, the latter tried to break out, and the former nearly succeeded but the Circles held.

Or, if your GM let's you do a 'ritual at your lore' ward in combat time.

That was my original suggestion, that even if not being used in general that should be allowed for Circles.

[Taran]

That was my original suggestion, that even if not being used in general that should be allowed for Circles.

If you allow non-thaumaturgic ward/circles in combat time, then they should be measured in combat time, IMO.  Using block and maneuver mechanics.

Drawing a circle isn't the part you need the maneuver for. You need the maneuver to power it with magic.

Put it this way -- around Dead Beat, Butters' Lore was probably, at most, 1 or 2. Would you trust a 1 or 2-shift effect to get anything done? Probably not. So you do the quick maneuver of cutting for blood, tag it for a +2. Now you're looking at a common ritual rolled from 3 or 4 instead.

I just wanted to point out that I think Conviction should be used for those maneuver-type circles instead of Lore.

Remember that, for thaumaturgy, Lore is not the skill that creates the circle.  Lore is the skill that dictates the maximum you are allowed to make a quick ritual.

Drawing power is based on Conviction and I'd argue it's your conviction that empowers the circle.  In a pinch, you'd do a quick ritual with enough power that you could call up the shifts without taking stress.  You don't have to go as high as your lore (if your lore is higher than your conviction)

Discipline is simply there to focus the power and keep it from going everywhere.

That's why I'd originally suggested a Conviction maneuver modified or restricted by Lore.

So butters had a low Lore.  Harry told him how to do the circle, then Butters rolled Conviction minus 1.

I kind of equate this 'mundane' circle trick to using a cross or other symbol to keep a BC vampire at bay.  Either by creating a maneuver and tagging it to compel their high concept or doing a straight up block.

[Mr. Death]

Remember that, for thaumaturgy, Lore is not the skill that creates the circle.  Lore is the skill that dictates the maximum you are allowed to make a quick ritual.

Right, which is why if Butters only has a Lore of 1, he needs a maneuver or something to boost his maximum power for a circle, otherwise it's just not going to be effective. In the circumstances, he can tank the stress needed for the power and control steps.

[Taran]

Right, which is why if Butters only has a Lore of 1, he needs a maneuver or something to boost his maximum power for a circle, otherwise it's just not going to be effective. In the circumstances, he can tank the stress needed for the power and control steps.

but do you think doing a simple circle like this follows the same rules as thaumaturgy? 

In my opinion, I don't think it does.  I think you could do this even if your lore was low.  I wouldn't have Butters call up power or take stress or anything.  I'd just let him make a conviction maneuver/block.   Just the same way you can use a cross to keep a vampire at bay as long as you believe strongly enough.

I do think that Harry giving him the knowledge (and an aspect to tag) is relevant.  I wouldn't allow a player to do this kind of thing without the proper knowledge.  So, maybe a Lore check to know how to do it and Harry helped him pass the roll?

I dunno.  There's, like, a dozen(or more) different ways to run those scenes.

But, If it does work exactly like thaumaturgy, it means people can do simple rituals without paying refresh for it...which seems unfair to me.

[dragoonbuster]

But, If it does work exactly like thaumaturgy, it means people can do simple rituals without paying refresh for it...which seems unfair to me.

Well, Lore does have the "Common Ritual" trapping inherent to it. I'd say setting up a basic circle falls under that.

[Taran]

True.  Then maybe it would be a lore roll afterall.  That trapping almost never gets used.

[Mr. Death]

Well, Lore does have the "Common Ritual" trapping inherent to it. I'd say setting up a basic circle falls under that.

Yeah, I was just looking up that bit. I was mistaken, it wouldn't be done like Thaumaturgy, just as a common ritual role.

Which works in Butters' favor, since he at least has a 1 in Lore, but nothing in Conviction or Discipline.

(He does get a +2 to Athletics for running the hell away, though, which I find hilarious.)