Hard time with new player's concept -- need some advice

[Lawgiver]

During the holidays our gaming goes into hiatus as people turn their time and attention to family.  I’ve invited two new people to join us once things get back into gear after New Year.  Both of them need some serious one-on-one time for character development, which we'll be getting to right after Thanksgiving. They’ve both done some RPG gaming in the past, but not a lot.  Both have read the Dresden books and loved them.  Neither of them have ever played a Fate/Fate-based game system.

Needless to say, their initial concepts for what they wanted their characters to be have gone way out of bounds and I’ve had to “kick them back in bounds” more than once already.

The guy -- I’m ok with where he’s at right now on his concept.  I think we’ll be able work up something we can both deal with.

The gal – {shakes head}, not so much.  She insists on a certain “trait” that I’m not sure is a good thing.

She wants her character to suffer something like the “Midas Touch”, only not in the literal “touch it and it turns to gold” way… It’s a sort of “while I’m involved in something stuff comes up roses”.

Say she gets involved in a business deal.  She can’t start a company of her own – it would tank.  But if she invests in someone else’s it does well.  If she stood at a roulette table, she couldn’t place a bet of her own – she’d lose everything.  But if she told someone else what number to bet on, they’d clean up.  As long as she doesn’t try to use this trait/power for her own direct/immediate benefit – as long as there’s someone else who can “take the hit” (so to speak) it’s “golden”.

My ‘issue’ is with which power to assign to make this the most workable for her and the other players… and the least work for me – if you see what I mean.  I’ve considered things and I’ve come down to three options and am hoping some of you wonderful folks can help me decide on which one might be best… or even if you have an alternate idea that would be preferable.

1.    Cassandra’s Tears.  Sort of like Abbey from WN and GS… the gal who “sees” a few seconds into the future (has the “alert dog”, Toto).  This would provide her the knowledge she dispenses and follows the ‘rule’ of not being useable for self… but it almost totally eliminates the possibility of using surprise against the characters as a factor during play – effectively eliminates Alertness as an initiative base (at least for the first round).  Not sure I like the implications.
2.   Focused Practitioner of some sort – Option-1 = Entropy Curses {Luck}.  As long as we limit it to use only on others it might work, but this seems a bit overly convenient, her use of it could be all sorts of haphazard and – to my mind – the potential for blowing game balance is more than I’d like to admit.
3.   Focused Practitioner of some sort – Option-2 = Ectomancer of a sort.  She has a spirit (sort of like Sir Stuart) who she can communicate with who can not only tell her things but also achieve some very limited manipulation of solid objects (tweak the throw of dice, look at other people’s cards, etc).  This provides some of the “luck factor” but doesn’t have much ability to affect wider things like some else’s luck when they’re not in her immediate vicinity.  It seems to only peripherally address what the player wants and becomes a very poor compromise.

I’m trending towards #1 right now but am more than willing to entertain alternate suggestions – though, keep in mind please, that the further afield from the main thrust of the players conception the harder I’ll have to argue with her to get her to shift.

Thanks in advance for anything.

[blackstaff67]

It kinda sounds like maybe she's making a Lore roll versus a particular difficulty that you as GM can set, but can only pass the "tags" over to other PCs/NPCs.  Wondering if that might be linked to a power and/or Aspect ("Not just for myself/Only for others/It takes a team/Whatever"). 

[Lawgiver]

Hmmm... interesting angle.  I think I'm sort of liking that.  That way she doesn't spend a lot of points on supernatural powers to finagle it and still gets something that works in the vein she's looking for.

My only concern is that a Lore roll wouldn't be as... "passive"?... as her description of it to me sounded.  If I'm getting it right (and I'll certainly have to talk to her some more), then it's not necessarily a conscious thing... at least not all the time.

Let's take the Roulette Wheel example... she could be standing next to you while you play.  As I understand it, she wouldn't necessarily "get a feeling" of what # is coming, but if she told you which number to play, that's the one that would come up. Or the business investment angle.  If she put some cash into the enterprise, she could walk away from it (sort of a fire and forget scenario) and it would do well.  There's no real conscious control/effort to it like we would see with casting a spell or rolling a skill.

I told her we might not be able to find something that works.  Your take is interesting, though.

[wyvern]

I'd tend to say that's an aspect, not a power.  And it's a nasty one - a compel on that could make the character fail at just about anything they're doing!

But it's also a justification for the player to spend their own fate points to help out others - in game-mechanics terms, she'd be spending a fate point to declare an aspect, and then handing the tag on that aspect off to whoever else.

This also fits well with the description of the 'power' being a 'passive' one - it's one the player chooses when to use, not the character.

Edit: if you want an actual power, though, how about this one:
-1 refresh: "And It Comes Up Roses": When an ally invokes one (or more) aspects you created for either a reroll or a +2 bonus, they gain an additional +1 bonus on that roll.

Note that that's just a single extra +1, regardless of how many aspects are invoked - and note that it applies to any invocation, not just the initial free tag.

[Lawgiver]

I'd tend to say that's an aspect, not a power.  And it's a nasty one - a compel on that could make the character fail at just about anything they're doing!

But it's also a justification for the player to spend their own fate points to help out others - in game-mechanics terms, she'd be spending a fate point to declare an aspect, and then handing the tag on that aspect off to whoever else.

This also fits well with the description of the 'power' being a 'passive' one - it's one the player chooses when to use, not the character.

This is also sounding interesting.

But... hmmm... in order for her to have the FP's to spend to declare, the way you describe it, I'd almost have to deliberately compel the crud out of this just to load her up with points to use.  That feels a bit... overly-contrived... if you understand my take there?  Don't get me wrong, I find the overall idea appealing but I'm afraid of the implementation/mechanics of it taking on a bit of an "on rails" feel.

[Haru]

Well, truth be told, this seems like a rather interesting power. I would be inclined to allow it. The problem is, it doesn't have a downside. It's the ultimate support power for pretty much everything. And that doesn't fit. So I think a good way to balance this might be to work out the downside of this power.

Now the thing that immediately comes to mind with a power like this is "muse". Maybe she's a scion of a being like that. As a muse, she is probably a faerie of sorts, so in this case a changeling. If those are faerie powers, the character won't be able to just give the effects of her powers freely to other people. She needs to make a deal, and an equal one at that. Not because she wants to, but because those are the rules of the fay.

Another thing that I've seen come up with muses is that their powers come at a price that's more than the faerie deal thing. It's often described like a drug. People can do incredible things when under the influence of a muse, but once she's gone, they fall sick like they have withdrawal.
Though I think that might be a bit boring for a game, so let me suggest something else: The character can't really make someone lucky so their endeavors succeed, they can just siphon luck from the future. And their target has to pay the price sooner or later. A bit like sponsor debt from luck, if you will.

And we can maybe go a bit further. Maybe she also has learned to move around those "luck debts". So she might be able to push someone's luck and then push the debt onto someone else, making them unlucky in the process.

So from here, we could simply go for a simple "sponsored magic (luck)". It should encompass pretty much anything you might be able to do. You could ask for sponsor debt if you think the luck they spread out is too much and that it should require some balance. It's probably not so much a direct sponsor as much as a cosmic force. Call it Karma or what have you.

Maybe an idea for an additional mechanic, since sponsor debt might not fit too well, as described above. Maybe have a track like this:

-2

-2

-1

-1

0

+1

+1

+2

+2

You start out at 0. For every good luck you spread around, you go into the negative direction, giving you a bonus on doing bad luck magic, but a penalty on doing good luck magic. If you spread bad luck, you go into the positive direction. That way you can't just do either magic, you have to do both, or you get bad at the one you keep throwing out.

As an added power, you could go with allowing her to make a die roll succeed/fail without rolling, but the karma track moves to the end of the opposite side. And it should only be allowed if you are on the opposite side of the track already (though not necessarily the end).

I hope that isn't too confusing. I can try to rewrite this, if it is.

[Quantus]

This is also sounding interesting.

But... hmmm... in order for her to have the FP's to spend to declare, the way you describe it, I'd almost have to deliberately compel the crud out of this just to load her up with points to use.  That feels a bit... overly-contrived... if you understand my take there?  Don't get me wrong, I find the overall idea appealing but I'm afraid of the implementation/mechanics of it taking on a bit of an "on rails" feel.

Call it a Curse and make it a Sponsored Magic, only one she doesnt know the source of.  She can take a hit herself, "paying the  price", by enduring an equivalent but negative entropy curse, or she can rely on the Power and put herself into Debt to an unknown Sponsor with an Unknown Agenda.  That gives you a framework to rein in the powers over-use, a fun Mystery to work around into the rest of the game, and the freedom to adjust things later (by revealing the Sponsor) once you've seen how she settles into the character. 

[Bunston]

I like the sponsored magic approach. I also like the idea that she doesn't so much grant good luck, as give her good luck to someone else. The more good luck she gives out, the more bad luck she has for herself.

[Quantus]

I like the sponsored magic approach. I also like the idea that she doesn't so much grant good luck, as give her good luck to someone else. The more good luck she gives out, the more bad luck she has for herself.

Ya, I always say when in doubt, go for a one-to-one trade-off, it's usually easier to find a more natural balance. 

[Shaft]

New power:

[-2 Refresh] Lucky: Once per scene, this ability lets the character with the power reroll the dice on any action they take to affect a target within the same zone.

[-1 Extra Refresh] Fortune Favors My Friends: The ability lets the lucky character choose an ally within the same zone to use their reroll instead of them.  Prerequisite: Lucky.

[-1 Extra Refresh] : Fortune Doesn't Favor My Enemies: The ability lets the character use their reroll to force an opponent of the character's choice within the same zone to reroll the dice.  Prerequisite: Lucky.

[-1 Extra Refresh per extra zone] In the Zone: the character can affect rerolls two or three zones away. Prerequisite: Lucky.

[-1 Extra refresh per extra reroll] Lucky Streak: the character can get an additional reroll in the scene for every point they spend.  Prerequisite: Lucky.

[+1 Refresh] Restoring the balance: every time the character uses this ability, the GM gets a Fate point for enemy NPCs to use. Prerequisite: Lucky.

Minimum cost on this ability will be one.

If the character wants to only use the ability on others, that should be an Aspect, or it can be a power limitation that reduces the refresh cost by one.

[Lawgiver]

Maybe she's a scion of a being like that. As a muse, she is probably a faerie of sorts, so in this case a changeling.

We explored the Changeling idea for all of about 30 seconds. That's not where she wants to go... though -- truth be told -- all the characters in my current game (based in the new Paranet, Las Vegas) are "scions" of a sort... just of old-world deities... like Ishtar, Dionysus, etc.  This one wants to be a scion of King Midas (why I don't know, he wasn't even a "god" he was cursed.../shrug.

The character can't really make someone lucky so their endeavors succeed, they can just siphon luck from the future. And their target has to pay the price sooner or later. A bit like sponsor debt from luck, if you will.

This sounds pretty juicy... {smiling}

And we can maybe go a bit further. Maybe she also has learned to move around those "luck debts". So she might be able to push someone's luck and then push the debt onto someone else, making them unlucky in the process.

Probably an advanced, added-cost ability for later insertion... but, yeah that's tempting.

So from here, we could simply go for a simple "sponsored magic (luck)". It should encompass pretty much anything you might be able to do. You could ask for sponsor debt if you think the luck they spread out is too much and that it should require some balance. It's probably not so much a direct sponsor as much as a cosmic force. Call it Karma or what have you.

Maybe an idea for an additional mechanic, since sponsor debt might not fit too well, as described above. Maybe have a track like this:

-2

-2

-1

-1

0

+1

+1

+2

+2

You start out at 0. For every good luck you spread around, you go into the negative direction, giving you a bonus on doing bad luck magic, but a penalty on doing good luck magic. If you spread bad luck, you go into the positive direction. That way you can't just do either magic, you have to do both, or you get bad at the one you keep throwing out.

As an added power, you could go with allowing her to make a die roll succeed/fail without rolling, but the karma track moves to the end of the opposite side. And it should only be allowed if you are on the opposite side of the track already (though not necessarily the end).

I hope that isn't too confusing. I can try to rewrite this, if it is.

Hmmm... I like the bi-directional nature of that "karma track".  We could include it on the sheet with the other attributes -- sort of like a "feeding" track for vampires but this one gets stress marked? Would she have to take a "consequence" to throw a "luck" benefit to someone else (roll benefit consummate with the consequence level)?

[Lawgiver]

New power:

[-2 Refresh] Lucky: Once per scene, this ability lets the character with the power reroll the dice on any action they take to affect a target within the same zone.

[-1 Extra Refresh] Fortune Favors My Friends: The ability lets the lucky character choose an ally within the same zone to use their reroll instead of them.  Prerequisite: Lucky.

[-1 Extra Refresh] : Fortune Doesn't Favor My Enemies: The ability lets the character use their reroll to force an opponent of the character's choice within the same zone to reroll the dice.  Prerequisite: Lucky.

[-1 Extra Refresh per extra zone] In the Zone: the character can affect rerolls two or three zones away. Prerequisite: Lucky.

[-1 Extra refresh per extra reroll] Lucky Streak: the character can get an additional reroll in the scene for every point they spend.  Prerequisite: Lucky.

[+1 Refresh] Restoring the balance: every time the character uses this ability, the GM gets a Fate point for enemy NPCs to use. Prerequisite: Lucky.

Minimum cost on this ability will be one.

If the character wants to only use the ability on others, that should be an Aspect, or it can be a power limitation that reduces the refresh cost by one.

Wow. I really like this too... a new power with add-on abilities that ramp up the cost as they ramp up the base ability. Very nice.

Now I'm about spoiled for choice.  I may have to work on blending several of the above ideas.

/rubs hands
/evil laugh

"Yes, my precious.  We shall see what we shall see... muuuaaahhahhaha!"

Tyvm.

Anyone else with input, welcome.  Don't stop now. We're on a roll!

[Shaft]

Another idea for a stunt could be:

Lend a Helping Hand to Hand (Fists): the character gets a +2 to complete a maneuver that can be tagged by an ally in a subsequent action.

[Haru]

We explored the Changeling idea for all of about 30 seconds. That's not where she wants to go... though -- truth be told -- all the characters in my current game (based in the new Paranet, Las Vegas) are "scions" of a sort... just of old-world deities... like Ishtar, Dionysus, etc.  This one wants to be a scion of King Midas (why I don't know, he wasn't even a "god" he was cursed.../shrug.

Well, it could be a bloodline curse that manifests differently, depending on the personality of the carrier.

Probably an advanced, added-cost ability for later insertion... but, yeah that's tempting.

Well, I was more thinking that she would be able to give good luck to someone and bad luck to someone else. That's all encompassed in the sponsored magic already. The trick now would be to balance it, force her to keep good luck and bad luck in check.

Hmmm... I like the bi-directional nature of that "karma track".  We could include it on the sheet with the other attributes -- sort of like a "feeding" track for vampires but this one gets stress marked? Would she have to take a "consequence" to throw a "luck" benefit to someone else (roll benefit consummate with the consequence level)?

Not really. The idea is that she just uses sponsored magic as anyone else, but as she does, she gets compelled (not that way) to even the score.

Example:

-2	-2	-1	-1	0	+1	+1	+2	+2
				*

She starts out like this. Now she casts a maneuver spell that puts the aspect "good luck" on one of her allies. Her luck track shifts to this:

-2	-2	-1	-1	0	+1	+1	+2	+2
			*

Now, if she wants to do the same spell again, she suffers a penalty of -1 to her discipline. She already created good luck, and the universe is slightly out of balance for this. She can push it, but only so far, and it gets harder and harder.

But she can also choose to throw some bad luck around. Since the universe longs to be balanced, she now gets +1 on her discipline to throw around bad luck. She could attack an opponent with that, just not with a magical blast directly, but with bad luck. A bullet ricocheting, them tripping and falling badly, etc. If she does that, her track goes back to 0 and if she does it again, she goes  to +1 etc, giving her a penalty on bad luck and a bonus on good luck.

Now depending on how flexible you want this balancing thing to be, you could shorten the table to

-2

-1

0

+1

+2

so she would be at the +-2 pretty quickly. It would also mean that she's got a bit of a combo, support your allies 2 times, then land a heavy hit on an opponent. Which is a neat balance, I think.

Mind you, this is not a stress track, it's a balance track. You don't note stress here, just where you currently are on the good/bad luck scale.

When it comes to taking consequences, you can do that to power spells, just as with any normal form of magic. You can also take sponsor debt, since this is sponsored magic. Allowing you to temporarily get around the balancing issues, for example.

[Lawgiver]

Well, it could be a bloodline curse that manifests differently, depending on the personality of the carrier.
Well, I was more thinking that she would be able to give good luck to someone and bad luck to someone else. That's all encompassed in the sponsored magic already. The trick now would be to balance it, force her to keep good luck and bad luck in check.
Not really. The idea is that she just uses sponsored magic as anyone else, but as she does, she gets compelled (not that way) to even the score.

Example:

-2	-2	-1	-1	0	+1	+1	+2	+2
				*

She starts out like this. Now she casts a maneuver spell that puts the aspect "good luck" on one of her allies. Her luck track shifts to this:

-2	-2	-1	-1	0	+1	+1	+2	+2
			*

Now, if she wants to do the same spell again, she suffers a penalty of -1 to her discipline. She already created good luck, and the universe is slightly out of balance for this. She can push it, but only so far, and it gets harder and harder.

But she can also choose to throw some bad luck around. Since the universe longs to be balanced, she now gets +1 on her discipline to throw around bad luck. She could attack an opponent with that, just not with a magical blast directly, but with bad luck. A bullet ricocheting, them tripping and falling badly, etc. If she does that, her track goes back to 0 and if she does it again, she goes  to +1 etc, giving her a penalty on bad luck and a bonus on good luck.

Now depending on how flexible you want this balancing thing to be, you could shorten the table to

-2

-1

0

+1

+2

so she would be at the +-2 pretty quickly. It would also mean that she's got a bit of a combo, support your allies 2 times, then land a heavy hit on an opponent. Which is a neat balance, I think.

Mind you, this is not a stress track, it's a balance track. You don't note stress here, just where you currently are on the good/bad luck scale.

When it comes to taking consequences, you can do that to power spells, just as with any normal form of magic. You can also take sponsor debt, since this is sponsored magic. Allowing you to temporarily get around the balancing issues, for example.

Ah... much clearer, thank you.

I'm just going to have to print all this out and have it on hand when she and I talk about this.  I"ll present her the options explain some of the pros/cons.

Amazing stuff here.