Dresden vs everyone in the Genre

[Lizard King]

I feel like my whole intitial point has been gradually skewed.  I don't dislike female leads, or female authors.  (I happen to love Patricia Cornwell and her character, Kay Scarpetta.) 
What I hate is the SAMENESS of the genre as a whole.  I want more characters like Jim's, whether it's male or female lead.  What I want is a lead character with depth and, well, 3D, like Lightsabre said.  For instance, if Murphy were the lead in DF, she would have to be balanced and fleshed out a LOT for me to follow it. 
I want some UNIQUENESS in this genre.  I'm being forced to search elsewhere to find it, and to wait like a twitching fiend for the next DF book.  (if you like unique leads, try Darkly Dreaming Dexter, by Jeff Lindsay.  Insanely awesome book)

[DragonFire]

Are we discussing the gender of the author, or the gender of the authors creations? In books written in first person it's a real talent to avoid a gender Bias and write more than so many pages, eventually standard grammar or social practices will reveal it.

I was discussing author gender. Despite offending a few people (and finding novium's reply damn offensive), I stick to what I said.
Female authors, male or female lead characters, tend to emphasise romantic relationships and such, in their stories. That's fine. I LIKE The Otherworld series, I'm not so keen on Weather Warden, but that's me. I LOVED the first 9 LKH books, and I quite enjoy the Rachel Morgan books by Kim Harrison.
But I can look at all 4 of those series's, and find similarities in the content.
DOes this mean that female authors are WORSE?? Of course not. DOes it mean their work is different to male authors? Yes.
DOes it happen every time? no.

But look at Nightlife by Rob Thurman. I was confused when I read that, because it read, to me, like a female author, but I just assumed Rob was short for Robert. When I found out Rob Thurman was a woman, it made a lot more sense.
Does it mean it was an inferior book? no way in hell.

I honestly can't think of the last book I've read where the characters gender became a non-point in light of the greater story, I don't think I ever consider the characters' gender to be an issue unless it's brought up within the book (IE the "tough female" character being picked on by a bunch of big macho-male types because they think of her as weak).

Character gender is irrelevant to a good plot, vital to good characterisation.
The only thing I'm sick of is there seems to always be the obligatory 'your a woman, you can't do what us men do'.....woman proves she can, scene.
It's really boring.

As for the authors gender... If I like the story they could be a eunich from Saturn for all I care.

I was never commenting men wrote BETTER books. I was telling Lizard king my opinion on what he was talking about.

[Lizard King]

I appreciate the responses on this thread.  I was not sure what kind of reaction it would get. 

I have to agree with Lightsabre in what he's said regarding the way male and female authors approach their novels.  It doesn't take away from their skill or talent.  It all just depends on what the READER wants. 
I'm going to say again, though, that what bugs me is how similar so many of the books in the genre are.  I go from LKH to Armstrong, to Harrison, and I feel like I just flipped channels back and forth between soap operas. 
And I don't happen to like soap operas.

[Rook]

I think that's the reason why JB is really the only author of the genre that I'll spend money on without hesitation: i know I'll get something unique.

Who else but Dresden does things like send pizza to the middle of nowhere once a week as a retainer for faerie services?  Or references Wile E. Coyote during a street fight?

I tried reading the Anita Blake novels, and just got bogged down feeling that I'd read it/seen it before ala Angel/Buffy.  It's all about the same angsty, predictable bada**es doing the same sorts of things. Sexy vampires and detective agencies, yada yada. It's gotten to the point that, unless I get wind of something really original, I just don't bother.

Anybody else in that sort of rut?

[DragonFire]

I appreciate the responses on this thread.  I was not sure what kind of reaction it would get. 

I have to agree with Lightsabre in what he's said regarding the way male and female authors approach their novels.  It doesn't take away from their skill or talent.  It all just depends on what the READER wants. 
I'm going to say again, though, that what bugs me is how similar so many of the books in the genre are.  I go from LKH to Armstrong, to Harrison, and I feel like I just flipped channels back and forth between soap operas. 
And I don't happen to like soap operas.

I feel much the same way. Doesn't mean I don't like them, or that their skill is lower than any other author.
Simply that I'm not as into the things their books focus on.
Like poetry, an opinion on a novel is very personal.

As novium said in an apparent rebuttal to me, he/she didn't like Webmage, couldn't get into it. I damn near skipped work so I could finish it.

We;re all different. We like different things.

[DragonFire]

I think that's the reason why JB is really the only author of the genre that I'll spend money on without hesitation: i know I'll get something unique.

Who else but Dresden does things like send pizza to the middle of nowhere once a week as a retainer for faerie services?  Or references Wile E. Coyote during a street fight?

I tried reading the Anita Blake novels, and just got bogged down feeling that I'd read it/seen it before ala Angel/Buffy.  It's all about the same angsty, predictable bada**es doing the same sorts of things. Sexy vampires and detective agencies, yada yada. It's gotten to the point that, unless I get wind of something really original, I just don't bother.

Anybody else in that sort of rut?

Yup

[Ursiel]

I think that's the reason why JB is really the only author of the genre that I'll spend money on without hesitation: i know I'll get something unique.

Who else but Dresden does things like send pizza to the middle of nowhere once a week as a retainer for faerie services?  Or references Wile E. Coyote during a street fight?

I tried reading the Anita Blake novels, and just got bogged down feeling that I'd read it/seen it before ala Angel/Buffy.  It's all about the same angsty, predictable bada**es doing the same sorts of things. Sexy vampires and detective agencies, yada yada. It's gotten to the point that, unless I get wind of something really original, I just don't bother.

Anybody else in that sort of rut?

Also the Roadrunner thing when he was fighting Aroura (My spelling sucks).

[Rook]

Also the Roadrunner thing when he was fighting Aroura (My spelling sucks).

Exactly! Who else can say "Meep Meep" to a faerie queen and get away with it?

Although my favorite line is still "For my next trick, anvils!"

That really needs to be an icon. 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Female authors, male or female lead characters, tend to emphasise romantic relationships and such, in their stories.

That may well be true in the subgenre of dark urban fantasy - and how much of that is a combination of what that genre is perceived as being about by publishers, and what sort of people are drawn to that perception, is a different question - but it's way excessive as a generalisation even in SF/Fantasy as a whole. Or at least, the thought of Sarah Monette or C.J. Cherryh, or even Lois Bujold, being perceived as emphasising romantic relationships and such just makes me laugh.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

In books written in first person it's a real talent to avoid a gender Bias and write more than so many pages, eventually standard grammar or social practices will reveal it.

I disagree, because to my mind it's trivially easy. I've both read plenty and written a fair bit that has been entirely opaque to other readers - this is not the only location where I'm not out about my gender.  Mind you, I do wirte a fair number of angels, AIs, and non-gendered aliens. Standard grammer or social practices in the society you're used to are easy to avoid if you write in a different setting, historical or fictional.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Who else but Dresden does things like send pizza to the middle of nowhere once a week as a retainer for faerie services?  Or references Wile E. Coyote during a street fight?

Felix Castor ? Bob Howard ?

[ "I like rhetorical questions. I usually get the answers right." ]

[Lizard King]

Felix Castor ? Bob Howard ?

What's your point?  
The reason I'm asking, is it seems like you are simply trying to be argumentative.  And maybe a bit obnoxious.  

[DragonFire]

That may well be true in the subgenre of dark urban fantasy - and how much of that is a combination of what that genre is perceived as being about by publishers, and what sort of people are drawn to that perception, is a different question - but it's way excessive as a generalisation even in SF/Fantasy as a whole. Or at least, the thought of Sarah Monette or C.J. Cherryh, or even Lois Bujold, being perceived as emphasising romantic relationships and such just makes me laugh.

LAugh away. I've not read anything by those authors, nor am I aware of any urban fantasy they've written. I do stress not ALL authors fit this mold, but it seems to me that most do.
MAybe you could stop being so defensive and borderline rude and actually discuss why you think that is??

ANd I never, ever stated it was across SF/F as a whole, I specifically stated URBAN FANTASY, as this is what the thread is about.
I can tell you of one female author that has the balance right. Mercedes Lackey. She has a decent balance between romance and action, but there is still more romance in her stuff than, say, DF, or the Felix Castor books.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

What's your point? 
The reason I'm asking, is it seems like you are simply trying to be argumentative.  And maybe a bit obnoxious. 

My point here, fwiw, is that, fond of the Dresden Files as I am, they are not a unique example of urban fantasy with a male protagonist who has the virtue of a snarky sense of humour, and that this is probably worth letting people know about in this context, as anyone who is looking at the Dresden Files as unique in this way may be unaware of other authors and characters out there whom they would find enjoyable. I'm sorry you find this problematic; it seemd a positive thing to me.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

LAugh away. I've not read anything by those authors, nor am I aware of any urban fantasy they've written.

Your statement "Female authors, male or female lead characters, tend to emphasise romantic relationships and such, in their stories" did not read to me as limited to this particular subset of SF/fantasy. My apologies if that was a misreading.

MAybe you could stop being so defensive and borderline rude and actually discuss why you think that is??

The first half of the post of mine you were just replying to was intended as an answer to that, but to expand on that, as it clearly wasn't clear enough:

There is a perception of a certain kind of urban fantasies with female protagonists - paranormal romances, vampire shaggers, nosferotica, call them what you will - as being principally about romance with action secondary if present at all.  This is a marketing perception.  It leads publishers to think more of this stuff will sell.  It leads authors to think that this kind of stuff will sell; or, perhaps a more apropos and less cynical way of putting it, it leads authors who want to do things with lots of romance in to find that market appealing.  The more of it there is, the more the people who like that kind of thing will buy, the stronger the genre gets, it's self-sustaining and self-fulfilling, and I think LKH and Buffy are explanation enough for how the whole thing got started.

ANd I never, ever stated it was across SF/F as a whole, I specifically stated URBAN FANTASY, as this is what the thread is about.

How are you defining urban fantasy ?  I don't think the biases you express about women and romance extend to Emma Bull or Kara Dalkey, for example, in the work of theirs I think of as urban fantasy.

If you want to define urban fantasy specifically as meaning paranormal romance, then yes, sure, lots of it is by female authors and romance-focused; I think what this says is that at the paranormal romance is a popular subgenre and easier to sell than other kinds of urban fantasy, [ witness for example the total failure of the final part of Walter Jon Williams' Metropolitan trilogy to find a publisher ] and I do find going from that to generalisations about how men and women write to be problematic.