Thresholds vs. uninvited Wizards and other questions

[Ardrikk]

So how does everyone model the "setting a part of their power aside" aspect of a wizard who crosses a threshold uninvited?  Lower their effective Conviction score while they're inside, at least as it pertains to summoning up power for spell casting?
That's the best I can come up with, though it still feels a little off since the wizard could still empower spells at their normal level or above; they'd just take extra mental stress from it.

For something like a being with powers, like a White Court Vamp, it's easier to figure out: just remove refresh points worth of powers equal to the threshold strength. Or maybe just disallow them from using any of their physical powers at all, treating it as a compel on their high concept. Okay, so maybe that's not the easiest either.

The threshold rules in the book are great for dealing with spirit beings trying to cross uninvited or for magic to be thrown across a threshold, but they don't feel fully fleshed out for situations like I describe above.

Additional questions:

1) Do Changelings have to follow the hospitality rules if they cross a threshold uninvited?  I would guess not since they're still part human and have free will. But, then again, Wizards are human and thresholds affect them.

2) Do thresholds affect:
a) White Court Virgins? (Guessing not as they don't yet have the full hunger demon spirit nor the physical abilities)
b) Red Court Infected?
c) Werewolves?

[Taran]

Wizards

You don't really lower conviction.  The threshold blocks the Power of the spell.  This plays havoc with rotes since you can't change how much power you push into them.  threshold forces higher control rolls if you want to have the same level of spell.

Example:  Threshold 4

A wizard with a Power 5; weapon 5 attack would lose 4 shifts.  Therefore, it would only be a power 1 spell and the wizard would still have to control 5 shifts.

If they wanted a Power 5 attack, they'd need to control 9 shifts and expend more mental stress to power the spell.

It doesn't affect attacks too much since targeting is the most important thing for those spells(although, it obviously lowers weapon rating) and targeting is not affected by thresholds.

It totally kills maneuvers and blocks.
- a 3-shift scene aspect now has to be cast as a 7-shift spell just to place a fragile aspect.
- Blocks are worthless unless you pump piles of power into it.

Vampires/zombies/undead

Subtract refresh.  If the thing is 'undead' like a BCV, if you have 0 refresh, then the vampire can't actually cross the threshold because it's magic that's animating the body (or, that's how I see it).  Also, a BCV takes the thresholds strength as an environmental attack every exchange once they cross the threshold.

If I think it's appropriate to the creature (like a BCV), I might make them make a discipline roll vs the threshold before they can even try to cross.

Using a compel is a good way.  Make sure you inform your players so they know they can use their own FP's to trigger those kinds of compels against their enemies.

Other Beasties like werewolves/scions/changelings

I make them all subtract refresh.  I don't think it matters if they are 'free willed', they are still weakened.  Unlike BCV's, they wouldn't be affected by compels to prevent them from entering - unless their High Concept (or other aspect) dictated it. 
For example:  a demon scion could walk into a regular house.  They'd just lose refresh.  But if they tried to enter "HOLY GROUND" like a church, you could compel them to stay out. (especially if they have a catch as Holy).  This might be a good indicator as to when a specific creature should take damage from a threshold.

So this would apply to things like Red Court Vamps as well.

Sidenote
I have thresholds affect everyone because they don't get used all that often and I think it adds a neat component to a conflict (either as a defense or as a challenge for players)

Sidenote 2
I think it was discussed somewhere that you can enter a place uninvited and have no ill-effects as long as your intention isn't to do harm.

Which is why Leanansihd (SP?) was able to guard Harry's house.

This may only apply to Fae...I don't know.  But it seems like it should work across the board as long as the location isn't diametrically opposed to the 'intruders' nature.  (like a demon in a church).

[jftravis]

1) Do Changelings have to follow the hospitality rules if they cross a threshold uninvited?  I would guess not since they're still part human and have free will. But, then again, Wizards are human and thresholds affect them.

I think you're conflating two very different things, here. A threshold will affect their magic, the same as it does for any other magic that crosses without invitation. To be fair, Changelings and other Un/Seelie, et al, that are powerful enough to do this in the first place are likely to be mostly unfazed by anything short of VERY powerful thresholds.

However, being invited, or not, has to do with the Accords. Inviting such a being into your home DOES allow it to bring it's power with it, but by accepting the invitation, they are bound, on an almost physical level, by guest rules. To the Fae, in particular, these are as potent and binding as any loss of power might be (for entering uninvited), possibly moreso. As a guest, they are BOUND to treat their host with at least some courtesy, presumably including the implication to do no harm.

That being said, there's nothing preventing a crafty fae (and what fae ISN'T) into trying to goad or trick their host into breaking the similar HOST obligation... leaving said host entirely at their... mercy...

As for other beings, they can follow the Accords, or not. As long as they can cope with the consequences of the latter choice, the host is fair game. Keep in mind that even Mavra, as powerful as it is, has proven reluctant to break bargains, though I can't think of an instance where it was invited into someone's threshold. And it's not nearly as beholden to the Accords as the fae are.

[Ardrikk]

This is what I was referring to when talking about Changelings, Fae, and thresholds. From www.dresdenfiles.wikia.com. Marked under spoiler since it has to do with something from Cold Days.

(click to show/hide)

In Cold Days, Harry summons Cat Sith into Thomas Raith's apartment. Thomas is quite disturbed that a being from Faerie can just pop right in without being invited. Harry and Cat Sith assure him that he is obligated to abide by the Laws of hospitality, which is near holy to Faeries.[7]

[Taran]

Right, this is what I was saying about coming in as long as you don't mean harm.  Cat Sith is an Ally of Harry's and therefore 'welcome'.

But thresholds go beyond the conventions of the accords.  They are a physical barrier against power whether or not you are a member of the accords.  Fae jut happen to be more bound to them than other Nations.

The interesting thing about that quote is it doesn't specify whether Cat Sith is weakened.  It just says he won't do any harm because he's bound by his nature to keep peace.  He would flee instead of fight.  The important thing is he is not barred from entering.  (Although I doubt Thomas has much of a threshold to begin with)

Mechanically, I'd still have supernatural powers weakened.  It's one of the few defences mortals have against the supernatural and the protection of a threshold existed far before the accords were made. 

[Cadd]

Worth noting: It seems that it's specifically Fae that can enter uninvited as long as they don't mean harm. No indication this is true for any other type of being. (CD)

Wizards and WCVs can pass the threshold, but are weakened. (Wizards: several books. WCVs: at least GS)

Ghosts are completely blocked, but can sometimes circumvent the threshold. (GS, GP)

My synthesis:
No free will means you can't pass. Most types probably have their own tricks to find loopholes (Fae: mean no harm; Ghost: dream demesne)
Any amount of free will will let you pass, but you'll be diminished.
Any diminishing of power while using loopholes above is still unclear.

[Taran]

Presumably zombies don't have free will and Grevane sent in a whole bunch to attack Harry.  Also, there was the Frog Demon. 

I suppose you could argue that, since they were controlled by wizards, who have free will, it's not the creatures own will that is goin against the threshold.

[Ardrikk]

The zombies and frog demon can be explained by the concept of a threshold being able to be assailed and, eventually, broken down.  Creatures that are barred from passing can try to destroy the threshold so they can enter.  At least, IIRC how those scenes went. It's been a while since I read the respective books.  And the book does provide good rules for using a threshold as a block that has to be bypassed or a barrier that can be attacked and weakened.

My big question, again, was how to mechanically represent the reduction of someone's power when they enter uninvited.  I like the idea having any being with supernatural powers lose a number of refresh equal to the threshold strength.  As a GM, then, would you allow the player to choose which powers are temporarily unavailable or would you choose? 
So, if a werewolf enters an evil sorcerer's home, could he choose to lose the inhuman speed he gets in wolf form, but otherwise still be able to shift and have his inhuman strength and claws, for example?  Assuming a standard 2 strength threshold.

Thank you, also, for the description of how a threshold would affect an uninvited wizard's spellcasting.

[Taran]

The zombies and frog demon can be explained by the concept of a threshold being able to be assailed and, eventually, broken down.  Creatures that are barred from passing can try to destroy the threshold so they can enter.  At least, IIRC how those scenes went. It's been a while since I read the respective books.  And the book does provide good rules for using a threshold as a block that has to be bypassed or a barrier that can be attacked and weakened.

You are thinking of wards.  Wards can be assailed and destroyed.  Thresholds can't in that way.  Harry never had a good threshold but he had good wards.

As far as  choosing which powers:

If it's a PC, let hem decide.  Bu I'd recommend with keeping powers that make sense or are inherent.   

Wizards keep evocation but have weakened spell casting.

A red court vamp might lose strength and recovery and flesh mask but I might say that they'd lose claws last  since it's hard to physically lose your claws.  On the other hand, losing claws doesn't literally mean they lose their talons, it just means they are weakened to such a degree that their attacks are weaker.

Werewolf:  yeah, let him choose.  If he loses all his powers under human form, then you could just say he can t shift anymore.

Regarding the 'evil sorcerer '

Doing despicable acts while in a threshold will wear it down.   The sorcere who was having orgies and animal sacrifices to power heart exploding ritual is not going to have much of a threshold left. 

For the same reason an old house with generation after generation of loving families will have a strong threshold.

[Ardrikk]

Actually, I was referencing YS 230-231, where it talks about thresholds; specifically the "as a target" section:

How It Works
A threshold can operate in four different modes:
as a block, a target, a suppressor, or a source of
harm.

As a block: In the most basic form, a threshold
acts as a free-standing block (page 210) that
usually doesn’t need to be maintained by a character.
The threshold has a strength level (adjective
difficulty as determined below) that opposes
any affected supernatural actions. As a block, it
sets a minimum difficulty level for the success of
those actions.

As a target: Some creatures affected by the
block will be unable to do anything to bypass
it or weaken it. Other more powerful creatures
may be able to assail a threshold (usually only an
artificially created one) or tear it down. In such
a case, the threshold’s strength may be treated
as a stress track (one box per level, with consequences
a possibility). The threshold’s strength
drops as it takes stress hits.

As a suppressor: Many spell effects and some
supernatural abilities will erode or completely
disappear if they are carried across a threshold,
unless specially exempted (such as by invitation).
In this case, all affected abilities and spell
effects lose a number of shifts of effectiveness
equal to the strength of the threshold.  If the
spell affected has multiple parts to it, how the shifts are spread around may be determined
(and changed) on a case-by-case basis as decided
by the GM (though this should be done with
plenty of input from the affected player). In the
case of attack abilities, this most often manifests
as a reduction of the damage bonus provided,
acting as a penalty to the actual attack roll only
after the damage bonus has been reduced to
zero. If it isn’t clear how to “reduce” an ability,
then these reduction shifts might be spent on
improving opposing effects and efforts.

As a source of harm: Creatures of pure spirit
and other such entities are particularly vulnerable
to crossing thresholds. They may actually
take damage from crossing one, facing an
attack from the threshold’s strength during
every exchange. The GM may choose either to
consider the threshold’s attack to be equal to
its strength, or to roll and treat the strength as
an attack skill. Few creatures manage to hang
around long in the face of such conditions,
especially when their defensive abilities offer
no protection whatsoever against this attack.
Depending on the nature of the vulnerability,
they may end up rolling a Mediocre default in
defense against the attack. While some might
be allowed to use a Conviction defense, even
weaker thresholds will force such a creature to
retreat or dissolve, if given enough time.

But I may be misremembering the scenes from the books. Those may have been about creatures vs. wards instead of vs. thresholds.  As I said, it's been a while since I've read the earlier books and I don't recall the specifics of those scenes offhand.

[Taran]

Ok.  I have the beta of YS. Looks like they added more details in the final version.

I wonder how you would assail a threshold.  It says 'stronger creatures' so maybe they have spell casting abilities or just the strength of will.  Maybe using conviction as an attacking skill.  I don't imagine you could assault it physically since it's a metaphysical thing.

Anyways, I hope this helps

[Ardrikk]

I like the idea of a creature rolling its Conviction as a representation of its strength of will.

[wyvern]

I'd apply the threshold strength as a penalty on use of supernatural powers, rather than explicitly stripping refresh off abilities.  Otherwise you get the weird effect of a creature where some of its powers go away entirely, but others aren't diminished at all, which doesn't seem quite right to me.

[Ardrikk]

How would that apply to, say, a Werewolf though? Reduce any bonuses he gets from his Inhuman Speed and Inhuman Strength by the amount of the threshold?

There is precedent for a threshold only stripping away some powers though. From the same wiki article I referenced earlier, in regards to Ghost Story:

(click to show/hide)

In Ghost Story, the White Court vampire—Felicia—crossed Murphy's threshold without an invitation. Harry said that was gutsy because it cripples the White's ability to draw on their Hunger for strength and speed.[6]

Here's the wiki article I keep pulling from, by the way:

http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Home_threshold

[wyvern]

How would that apply to, say, a Werewolf though? Reduce any bonuses he gets from his Inhuman Speed and Inhuman Strength by the amount of the threshold?

Or require a discipline check against the threshold to change form - one or the other.  A shapeshifter that explicitly turned into a real, physical, ordinary wolf wouldn't have their physical abilities reduced at all, though.

There is precedent for a threshold only stripping away some powers though. From the same wiki article I referenced earlier, in regards to Ghost Story:

I don't agree with your interpretation here.  Yes, it makes it harder for the WCV to access those powers.  Does that mean those are the only powers limited?  No, just that they're the ones Dresden mentioned that time.