Why not bronze?

[knnn]

Maybe someone with a search function can check this out, but I don't think I've seen any reference to bronze in the book.

Given that iron gives you so much trouble, I would have thought that it makes sense to use bronze.  It is after all a copper-tin alloy and therefore I assume would be free of iron-rot.  It's also nearly as light as iron (for equal strength), and quite durable.  Sure for things where every last strength per gram counts I could see you sticking to iron despite the risk, but for guns (e.g. the pistol that Grimm carries around or the big cannon) I would think that bronze would suffice.  At the very least, I would expect it for plates/cups or maybe for everyday tools (so you don't have to worry about the copper peeling off a steel hammer).

[Quantus]

Maybe someone with a search function can check this out, but I don't think I've seen any reference to bronze in the book.

Given that iron gives you so much trouble, I would have thought that it makes sense to use bronze.  It is after all a copper-tin alloy and therefore I assume would be free of iron-rot.  It's also nearly as light as iron (for equal strength), and quite durable.  Sure for things where every last strength per gram counts I could see you sticking to iron despite the risk, but for guns (e.g. the pistol that Grimm carries around or the big cannon) I would think that bronze would suffice.  At the very least, I would expect it for plates/cups or maybe for everyday tools (so you don't have to worry about the copper peeling off a steel hammer).

It's only mentioned twice:

 "a heavy gate of bronze-bound wood" -ch-25

"The slender girl's fingers felt like cold, hard bronze"  - Ch 33


They have plenty of copper, but bronze requires a hardener alloy, historical Tin (preferred) or Arsenic (toxic), whcih is just another resource that would need to be collected at high-cost and risk from the Surface.  My guess is that it's simply been supplanted by the Copper-clad Steel as their preferred Hard Metal material. 

[wyltok]

If anyone has the book on Kindle, could they check if the word "pewter" shows up? It's a pretty common tin alloy used to make household items. If there's enough tin around to make pewter, there should be enough for bronze to be common as well.

The constant reference to copper-coating does make me wonder if there's some issue obtaining tin and zinc beyond those one would expect from obtaining copper (they all have to be mined, after all). There's actually more zinc than copper available in the Earth's Crust, and coating steel in zinc to protect from rust (galvanization) seems to date back to the 4th Century AD and remains fairly common to this day (zinc, however, does not develop as effective a patina as other metals, making it an arguably less efficient option).

Something that occurs to me is that maybe we're not accounting for the difficulties involved in transportation of bulk materials. In the real world, one can make a ship as big as one wishes, since they just need to float on water; in the world of the Cinder Spires, each ship requires at least 2 very complicated crystals just to float. Similarly, in the real world, mankind has been on the top of the food chain since time immemorial, making it simple (relatively speaking) to go prospecting for new mine locations; it occurs to me that in the world of the Cinder Spires, a gold rush simply cannot happen, due to the environmental conditions (of everything trying to kill you).

It wouldn't surprise me if copper-coating is only a local custom, with other spires further away using other materials for the same purpose.

[knnn]

The cannons are referred to as having brass in them, and that requires zinc. 

Maybe it's what Quantus appears to be suggesting -- they happen to have a big copper mine nearby and not a zinc/tin one.   That would explain using all the copper-clad stuff; it's the only thing they have.  Other spires might have different mines and have more bronze or zinc coating in their works.

[Quantus]

There is a single mention of Pewter:  Bridget wakes up in the ship infirmary with a Pewter cup in her hands. 

If we are correct that different spires have different mineral resources it would make sense for that kind of ship to have products from other Spires, with materials that arent as natively available. 

[knnn]

There is a single mention of Pewter:  Bridget wakes up in the ship infirmary with a Pewter cup in her hands. 

If we are correct that different spires have different mineral resources it would make sense for that kind of ship to have products from other Spires, with materials that arent as natively available.

That would make a lot of sense.  I think it would be worth keeping an eye out for references of what things get shipped between the spires and see if they include minerals.  I know that honey is one, and I remember that Ransom claimed she had some sort of shipment (clothes?). 

In any case, the Aurorans seem to use the exact same tech (copper clad swords and gauntlets) as Albion, so that's a minor point against.

[Quantus]

That would make a lot of sense.  I think it would be worth keeping an eye out for references of what things get shipped between the spires and see if they include minerals.  I know that honey is one, and I remember that Ransom claimed she had some sort of shipment (clothes?). 

In any case, the Aurorans seem to use the exact same tech (copper clad swords and gauntlets) as Albion, so that's a minor point against.

Well, the gauntlets at least are electric devices, so actual Copper is a functional requirement (barring gold contacts) and a Bronze Sword doesnt hold up well against an Iron one (presumably even with copper cladding) so that may be simply a matter of the Unending Arms Race dictating the materials, rather than local availability.  Im more looking at the uses where they'd be a reasonable substitute but not have to compete directly as in a swordfight. 

[knnn]

Well, the gauntlets at least are electric devices, so actual Copper is a functional requirement (barring gold contacts) and a Bronze Sword doesnt hold up well against an Iron one (presumably even with copper cladding) so that may be simply a matter of the Unending Arms Race dictating the materials, rather than local availability.  Im more looking at the uses where they'd be a reasonable substitute but not have to compete directly as in a swordfight.

Maybe.     

A bronze sword would be heavier, but on the other hand you wouldn't need to worry about rot (or rust).  I don't know enough about this kind of stuff, but I'm not convinced the trade-off makes for an obvious choice.  For the other side of things, consider Grimm's pistol.  If we use the UAR argument all the way, I think it would be made of bronze despite the cost.

[Second Aristh]

The Auroran forces were also trying to infiltrate the spire by posing as guards.  I don't think we can draw conclusions based on their equipment alone.  The Olympian whose room in Habble Landing got bought out would be a better choice for comparison if there were any helpful details about him.

[wyltok]

That would make a lot of sense.  I think it would be worth keeping an eye out for references of what things get shipped between the spires and see if they include minerals.  I know that honey is one, and I remember that Ransom claimed she had some sort of shipment (clothes?).

 

Please note that spices (which honey would be considered), precious metals/jewels, and clothing would all be deemed light products for transportation. Metal would very likely require quite a different infrastructure to transport.

In any case, the Aurorans seem to use the exact same tech (copper clad swords and gauntlets) as Albion, so that's a minor point against.

I would propose that the Aurorans may be considered the next door neighbors to Albion, so they probably share many preferences when it comes to resources (plus, as Second Aristh mentioned, they were probably using local weapons as part of their infiltration; it may be that the reason the berated Auroran had messed up with the copper coating of his sword was due to lack of familiarity with that particular coating agent).

It's also worth remembering that iron is the second most common metal in the Earth's crust (only aluminum is more common, but it's somewhat hard to produce). There's almost 500 times more iron in the Earth's crust than copper and zinc combined. As such, it is almost inevitable that most spires will use iron as the basis of their industry, with the only question being what they coat it with.

[Quantus]

Maybe.     

A bronze sword would be heavier, but on the other hand you wouldn't need to worry about rot (or rust).  I don't know enough about this kind of stuff, but I'm not convinced the trade-off makes for an obvious choice.  For the other side of things, consider Grimm's pistol.  If we use the UAR argument all the way, I think it would be made of bronze despite the cost.

Bronze was fairly universally supplanted by Iron in history from a functional standpoint, and copper-cladding isnt difficult in general, and made substantially easier with electricity and electroplating, so it wouldnt be prohibitive enough to tip the scales back to Bronze.  At least in terms of weaponry.  For a general material of construction Bronze and Brass had common use quite recently, with various pro's and con's over iron. 

[knnn]

Bronze was fairly universally supplanted by Iron in history from a functional standpoint, and copper-cladding isnt difficult in general, and made substantially easier with electricity and electroplating, so it wouldnt be prohibitive enough to tip the scales back to Bronze.  At least in terms of weaponry.  For a general material of construction Bronze and Brass had common use quite recently, with various pro's and con's over iron.

Fair enough, though Grimm does make a point about how he needs to continually replace the barrel of his pistol.

 I'm still wondering how they get that iron forged in the first place.  The quote from the swords seems to indicate that the rot just induces a vert fast-acting rust, not something that actually "eats up" the metal, so perhaps there's a way of recovering the oxidized parts of the iron with electricity without heating the iron up emough so that it loses it's form/strength.

[Quantus]

Fair enough, though Grimm does make a point about how he needs to continually replace the barrel of his pistol.

 I'm still wondering how they get that iron forged in the first place.  The quote from the swords seems to indicate that the rot just induces a vert fast-acting rust, not something that actually "eats up" the metal, so perhaps there's a way of recovering the oxidized parts of the iron with electricity without heating the iron up emough so that it loses it's form/strength.

Whether it's Oxides or some other chemical reaction in the mists, they should be able to recover some of it at least.  But that is assuming they have the chemical resources they'd need to large scale operations. 

Another factor that may be at play is the Etheric field's themselves, which can drive metal loss as surely as any galvanic issues that ships (or even teh statue of liberty) have.  It might also go a long way to explaining the accelerated speed of the Iron-rot.

[wyltok]

Another factor that may be at play is the Etheric field's themselves, which can drive metal loss as surely as any galvanic issues that ships (or even teh statue of liberty) have.  It might also go a long way to explaining the accelerated speed of the Iron-rot.

I've been wondering myself if the root of the iron rot lies in the etheric field acting as an electrolyzing medium for galvanic corrosion. But, if that were to be the issue, coating the swords with copper would be the worst possible solution! Generally, electroplating steel with a "nobler" metal such as copper or tin is a viable solution to protect the steel (it's the original recipe for tin cans). However, if the iron is ever exposed, the presence of the nobler metal actually accelerates the corruption of the iron/steel, which ends up acting as the anode for the reaction (the same thing happened to the Statue of Liberty; it was designed to have a non-metallic layer separating the copper skin from the iron supports, but contact between them took place and the iron started to quickly degrade).

Coating an iron/steel sword with the softer copper almost inevitably ensures that the iron will be exposed, as combat is bound to scratch through the coating of the weapons. Galvanization (that is, coating the steel with zinc) works in part because not only does the zinc not rust (rather, the zinc carbonate patina doesn't rust), but when the steel under the zinc is exposed, the contact between the two materials makes the corrosion happen in the zinc instead of the exposed iron.

[Quantus]

I've been wondering myself if the root of the iron rot lies in the etheric field acting as an electrolyzing medium for galvanic corrosion. But, if that were to be the issue, coating the swords with copper would be the worst possible solution! Generally, electroplating steel with a "nobler" metal such as copper or tin is a viable solution to protect the steel (it's the original recipe for tin cans). However, if the iron is ever exposed, the presence of the nobler metal actually accelerates the corruption of the iron/steel, which ends up acting as the anode for the reaction (the same thing happened to the Statue of Liberty; it was designed to have a non-metallic layer separating the copper skin from the iron supports, but contact between them took place and the iron started to quickly degrade).

Coating an iron/steel sword with the softer copper almost inevitably ensures that the iron will be exposed, as combat is bound to scratch through the coating of the weapons. Galvanization (that is, coating the steel with zinc) works in part because not only does the zinc not rust (rather, the zinc carbonate patina doesn't rust), but when the steel under the zinc is exposed, the contact between the two materials makes the corrosion happen in the zinc instead of the exposed iron.

That was more or less my thought as well.  The only thing that I can come up with is to point ot the fact that Etheric energy is related to BUT not actually electricity.  Im thinking of it in terms of a third energy form, along with Electricity and Magnetism, that are all fundamentally related but distinct in their behavior.