Renfields

[Neepling]

Hi all.
What's the current view on killing Renfields with magic
Lawbreaker or not?

[blackstaff67]

Your table, your rules.  That's my take on it.

[dragoonbuster]

^ Pretty much that.

The way I see it:

- Renfields viewed under the Sight are monsters and completely inhuman; they have had their free will burned out of their psyches by Black Court and replaced with bloodlust and rage.

- have had their free will burned out <-- that's the key phrase. You can't break a Law by killing a vampire or a Fae because they ostensibly have no free will.

- Harry killed the Renfields in Mavra's by using wind or a spirit shield (I forget) to blast their napalm back at them...that act has been debated up and down the forum but I say if it was two random mooks, Harry's got another Lawbreaker notch in his belt--Harry knew for a fact, or was as sure as he could be, that those men would burn to death before casting that spell. Therefore the only thing keeping him from being a Lawbreaker is that they aren't considered Mortal for the purposes of Lawbreaking.

Of course....Wardens will have a problem with you if you thrall them for yourself, might not be okay with the "free will" argument, etc.

Go with what the table consensus is.

[PirateJack]

- Harry killed the Renfields in Mavra's by using wind or a spirit shield (I forget) to blast their napalm back at them...that act has been debated up and down the forum but I say if it was two random mooks, Harry's got another Lawbreaker notch in his belt--Harry knew for a fact, or was as sure as he could be, that those men would burn to death before casting that spell. Therefore the only thing keeping him from being a Lawbreaker is that they aren't considered Mortal for the purposes of Lawbreaking.

That said, Harry was in a desperate situation there and was in enough pain that he couldn't have been thinking clearly. On top of that he has played pretty fast and loose with the Laws in general. I wouldn't be surprised if Renfields kept enough of their soul to count as mortal, albeit ones that are better off dead. Still very much a matter of debate, however.

It's a pet theory of mine that Harry has broken multiple Laws over the course of the series and has been tainted for it. Not enough to make him Capital E Evil, but enough to warp his perception of life, death and his own power. This combined with the stress and trauma of being a Warden, and the calamities that seem to follow him around on a yearly basis has served to turn him into a hardened killer who doesn't sweat it when he toes the line of breaking the Laws, and who is much more likely to apply violence as a solution to his problems.

[dragoonbuster]

That said, Harry was in a desperate situation there and was in enough pain that he couldn't have been thinking clearly. On top of that he has played pretty fast and loose with the Laws in general. I wouldn't be surprised if Renfields kept enough of their soul to count as mortal, albeit ones that are better off dead. Still very much a matter of debate, however.

It's a pet theory of mine that Harry has broken multiple Laws over the course of the series and has been tainted for it. Not enough to make him Capital E Evil, but enough to warp his perception of life, death and his own power. This combined with the stress and trauma of being a Warden, and the calamities that seem to follow him around on a yearly basis has served to turn him into a hardened killer who doesn't sweat it when he toes the line of breaking the Laws, and who is much more likely to apply violence as a solution to his problems.

Fair enough.

As far as your theory, I have the same/agree. You've also left out the Winter Mantle, which is constantly whispering-to-yelling in his ear to kill, plus his experience with Lea and then Lash and then Mab...oh yeah, he's not the same guy he was in Storm Front. He's good about not breaking many different Laws but he's certainly done a ton of killing with his magic. I think there are lawbreaking offenses and Lawbreaking offenses; Harry mostly only does the former, but they still matter. He wonders and worries over it all the time, and has said specifically: if you kill things with magic, you're more inclined to kill things later to solve your problems. He justifies his killing...but of course, don't pretty much all monsters justify what they do?

I'm not going so far as to say Harry's become a Monster yet...but he's not the White Knight he originally tended towards, either.

[PirateJack]

Fair enough.

As far as your theory, I have the same/agree. You've also left out the Winter Mantle, which is constantly whispering-to-yelling in his ear to kill, plus his experience with Lea and then Lash and then Mab...oh yeah, he's not the same guy he was in Storm Front. He's good about not breaking many different Laws but he's certainly done a ton of killing with his magic. I think there are lawbreaking offenses and Lawbreaking offenses; Harry mostly only does the former, but they still matter. He wonders and worries over it all the time, and has said specifically: if you kill things with magic, you're more inclined to kill things later to solve your problems. He justifies his killing...but of course, don't pretty much all monsters justify what they do?

I'm not going so far as to say Harry's become a Monster yet...but he's not the White Knight he originally tended towards, either.

Been a while since I updated the theory, since I came up with it somewhere around the time Ghost Story came out, iirc.

[Haru]

It's a pet theory of mine that Harry has broken multiple Laws over the course of the series and has been tainted for it. Not enough to make him Capital E Evil, but enough to warp his perception of life, death and his own power.

I think I read in a WoJ somewhere, that Harry is supposed to break all 7 rules at some point in the series. I don't think he's gotten around to all of them yet, but certainly some by now.

When it comes to Renfields, I would consider them something along the lines of Flesh-Golems where the laws are concerned. It's just a lot more simple to just erase a human will from a body and inhabit it with something feral, than to build a human looking flesh golem from scratch.

[Batmanunderpants]

Regardless if mechanically it's breaking rules , if you have a hard ass warden Npc then this is his chance to give you the business 

[jftravis]

At the more lenient end of the spectrum, it's not unreasonable to state that Renfields are "brain dead", given that you have to Take Out the target with Domination (or a similar custom ability) to create one. In this case, "dead" is replaced with "brain dead" as the result of being Taken Out.

You could presumably extend this logic to include people who were permanently transformed in to something else. Doing this is prone to permanently shattering their minds, effectively "killing" them.

[blackstaff67]

An argument could be made for Fine Thralls to be rescued/returned via the use of Holy Powers and what-not; granted, I'm assuming that there is still some vestige of divine spark/personality still present that the Blampire can't afford to snuff.

[dragoonbuster]

An argument could be made for Fine Thralls to be rescued/returned via the use of Holy Powers and what-not; granted, I'm assuming that there is still some vestige of divine spark/personality still present that the Blampire can't afford to snuff.

Fine Thralls can come back from their issues, eventually, with enough willpower and counseling and luck; remember that Elaine was a Fine Thrall. Renfields, however, aren't Fine Thralls...they're very violently turned into those monsters.