Cinder Spires Setting discussion [TAW Sample Chapter SPOILERS]

[Quantus]

It's not that complicated:  Now we use Base 10, but some things are entrenched into Base 12 (Time, Geographic coordinates etc) because the Aliens that taught them to us in the first place had 3-toed appendages instead of 5 toes on their paws like us. 

Obviously.


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[Dina]

Of course you are right 

[Quantus]

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

I agree with that, I disagree with the divide into 3 more than into 5.
Let's see, I concede the 24 hours of a day, or the 9 muses. But 60 minutes or second divide by 3 or 5 with no problem. 30 days for a month, again divide 3-5. Many things are seven. We also have 4 directions. Many things come in pairs. There are flowers with 5 based corolles and with 3 based one, so it's a tie here. I agree insects have 6 legs, so divide by 3. But other animals have numbers not based in 3 or 5.

You are right and wrong.  Many scientists and mathematicians have argued to move to a base 12 system because it is evenly divisible by twice as many numbers.  Also in base12, only divinding by 7 will result in an ugly repeating decimal value.  In base10, you get that ugly result with 3, 6, 7, and 9.   That makes the simple mathematics much easier for non-mathematicians.  Your everyday life would be easier.

Here is a Numberphile video that might explain it better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6xJfP7-HCc

[Mith]

I have seen that video before.  And while I agree about the change, I still think at this point, it would be easier for the change to be for those still using imperial to switch to metric.  Mostly because although Base 12 is a better system to use, Imperial is not just base 12.  I know not all the ones listed below are common usage anymore, as most people use inches, feet, yards, and miles, with chain and furlong still used in surveying.

1000 thou. = 1 in.
12 in. = 1 ft.
3 ft. = 1 yrd.
22 yrd. = 1 chain
10 chain = 1 furlong
8 furlong = 1 mi.
3 mi. = 1 league

[Dina]

So, sometimes base 10 (1000 thou = 1 in), sometimes 12 (12 in=1 ft), the rest sounds mosly random. Best thing about metric system is that you know how the units are (always difference of ten with the following, as decimeter, centimeter, milimeter and it's easy to divide by ten. So, a person who is 174 cm height is 1.74 m. A person who is 68 inches...how much is in ft? or thou?
Anyway, my idea was not discuss the advantages or disadvantages of metric system, only to say that as it is not used in all the world is depressing that in TAW is still used. And yes, I know Victorian Era really used those units, but as I think it is set in our future I would expect another thing.

Still, did I mention I loved this book, right?

[Mith]

You did. 

I just have my personal rants because I have to work with imperial units due to being in Engineering, even though I live in Canada, where we use SI.

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

Absolutely, I think everyone who does Math, Engineering, or Sciences whole heartedly agree that metric is better than Imperial, it's just that some would say metric should be base 12 rather than base 10. 

However, with base 12, imperial measurement jumps are almost always factors of 2, 3, 4, 12 or 60, all of which would look more natural in base 12.  Maybe it would be easier to make a 2-step change to base12 metric.  I know we've tried to switch to metric a couple of time here in the states, and it never took off.   Maybe baby steps?   

[Quantus]

The real strength of SI/metric is not just the ease of math from the Base ten numbers and divisions, it's the way the various units of measurement are defined with relation to each other for conversion uses.  The Meter is 1/10millionth the distance from the earth to the equator, the gram is the mass of one milliliter of water, which is one cubic centimeter, and takes one calorie to raise one degree in temp, which is 1/100th the difference between water's freezing point and its boiling point, etc etc etc. 

So while Im sure we could come up with new units that are equally useful under a Base12 system, it would be a complete replacement of all measurement standards as well, which is just a whole new layer of complication.  And one that scientists in particular will be loathed to invite, because the only thing that really matters is that everyone is using the same standard and agreeing on all the definitions; actual ease of use is secondary.   

[Dina]

So, sometimes base 10 (1000 thou = 1 in), sometimes 12 (12 in=1 ft), the rest sounds mosly random. Best thing about metric system is that you know how the units are (always difference of ten with the following, as decimeter, centimeter, milimeter and it's easy to divide by ten. So, a person who is 174 cm height is 1.74 m. A person who is 68 inches...how much is in ft? or thou?
Anyway, my idea was not discuss the advantages or disadvantages of metric system, only to say that as it is not used in all the world is depressing that in TAW is still used. And yes, I know Victorian Era really used those units, but as I think it is set in our future I would expect another thing.

That is what I meant, Quantus.

[Quantus]

That is what I meant, Quantus.

Right.  I was just also saying that, in addition to how it makes conversions easier when up and down a given unit, as you describe, there was also a lot of benefit when converting between completely different values, as when going from Length to Volume and even to Thermal energy.  I was referring to the whole thing where SI is based on 7 Fundamental/Base units and how their definitions interact on a base10 as well:  Length, Mass, Time, Electric Current, Temperature, Luminous Intensity, and Chemical Amount/Amount of substance (moles).

[Dina]

Yes, indeed. For instance, you have Newton (kg*m/s2) or Pascal (N/m2) or Joule (N*m)

[Rygar]

Actually the gram is not defined by the amount of pure water, but as 1/1000 the weight of The Kilogram and the mass of the International Kilogram Prototype possibly being off is a matter of some concern. It is the only Metric measurement still constrained by being derived from a physical artifact.

[Dina]

But it is the weight of a litre of pure water in standard conditions. I still like the "metro patron" (the concrete stick that was the international pattern for the metre)

[Quantus]

Actually the gram is not defined by the amount of pure water, but as 1/1000 the weight of The Kilogram and the mass of the International Kilogram Prototype possibly being off is a matter of some concern. It is the only Metric measurement still constrained by being derived from a physical artifact.

It was historically based on Water, that's how they originally defined it, even though now it's defined by a specific block of platinum alloy.  All of them are like that.  The meter used to be based on the earth's size but is now a derivative of the speed of light in a vacuum and a calculated fractional second, and even the Second is now defined by the decay of a caesium 133 atom instead of anything to do with the earth's rotation.