help with character based on music

[Tsunami]

I'd start with the most basic way to model musical magic:

• Ritual (Fiddlers Magic)
• Stunt (Musical Magic) Use Performance instead of Lore for Rituals

everything else would then be flavor text.
I think Ritual would be the way to go, instant effects being a little out of character here.

From there one could go ahead and modify.

As mentioned before: Sponsored magic instead of Ritual for the Devil aspect. would be a possibility.

As for Alternate Magical Paradigm. It's basically three stunts into one, so at -1 Refresh it's already dirt cheap. No need to make it free of charge.

[Haru]

I disagree with that last bit. Fists is actually pretty weak for a spellcaster, since they have better attacks available, and most characters don't want to buy Endurance above Good.

In Rising Tides, I've got a character who is wielding Mjolnir, which comes with Channeling (lightning). He uses weapons and endurance for that, which are his apex skills. Without magic, he can deal out weapon:7 hits, adding weapon and strength, so all the magic really does is give him a few more options, but it doesn't make him all that much more powerful. It just fits for the wielder of Mjolnir to use the weapon skill instead of discipline.

Anyway, the reason I prefer to charge for AMP is that otherwise there's no mechanical reason ever to cast with a non-apex skill. Look at Harry's basic sheet: he has Endurance and Intimidation above Lore and Discipline. If AMP was free, why wouldn't he use them to cast?

Because he's a wizard and that's how wizards do magic. He's been trained by wizards, he's using his own magical energy, etc. That's how wizards work. Free AMP is not there to min-max a character, but to make the magic fit the characters style, if he is vastly different from wizards. Like a musician who firstly plays music and then gives it magical properties. A monk who has learned to channel his chi into his fists. And so forth. But that can also come with drawbacks, of course. A musician will need an instrument for all his spells. A monk will have to hit his target to transfer the energy. And so forth.

[Sanctaphrax]

Because he's a wizard and that's how wizards do magic. He's been trained by wizards, he's using his own magical energy, etc. That's how wizards work. Free AMP is not there to min-max a character, but to make the magic fit the characters style, if he is vastly different from wizards.

Well, maybe. AMP doesn't specify its flavour. And its effect on Harry's actual abilities are almost indistinguishable from a bunch of Refinements.

If I was making it free I'd also try to strip it of flavour, to avoid punishing people for playing their concept. No need to give Harry -1 control and complexity because he wants to play a standard wizard and not some other kind of spellcaster.

Even with a cost of -1 it's still a bit of a no-brainer for anyone who doesn't prioritize their casting skills. But I think that's unavoidable if you want unconventional spellcasting to be viable at all.

[Taran]

That's a reasonable point--but I'd say the Devil's Gifts are Tainted and using full-on Incite Emotion is still mindrape. Maybe you attach a Stunt to it too, for a +2 on Performance with the fiddle (that might too broad a case, but you get my point). That wouldn't be tainted but for Compels for things to go wrong.

Music incites emotion.  Naturally.  It's pretty innate in humanity so I don't see how having incite emotion would be that terrible.    It's just a mechanical way of representing a very skillful, supernatural music. 

It all depends on how you narrate take outs.

[PirateJack]

I don't think it's very much like rape.

In setting it's pretty easy to declare that all mental effects that are made against a character without their permission are damaging to one degree or another. It's what the Third/Fourth Laws are based upon, after all. Therefore it's not too large of a leap to say that inciting emotion through unnatural means is akin to rape. That said, it's a grey area that only really falls in one direction or the other when paired with other abilities, like feeding on emotions.

[Sanctaphrax]

In setting it's pretty easy to declare that all mental effects that are made against a character without their permission are damaging to one degree or another. It's what the Third/Fourth Laws are based upon, after all. Therefore it's not too large of a leap to say that inciting emotion through unnatural means is akin to rape.

Yes, it is too large of a leap. Not all damaging things are rape. In fact, the vast majority absolutely aren't.

[dragoonbuster]

I don't think it's very much like rape.

Yes, it is too large of a leap. Not all damaging things are rape. In fact, the vast majority absolutely aren't.

"Rape" is a word, much like "retarded," has a somewhat broad definition but has come to be used almost exclusively to mean one thing in common usage. Given that every single instance of inciting emotions/invading a mind in the books has been explicitly defined as a personal violation, violent, and destructive to the victim's psyche (on an often permanent basis, though you sometimes can learn to cope with such changes) makes "mindrape" an accurate word to me, insofar as I interpret how worming your way into someone's mind works in the books. (The main exception to this that I can think of is Thomas' work at the hair salon, but he's still invading their psyche and stealing their life-force, just a tiny bit at a time to minimize his impact as much as he can. The argument "it makes them feel good" when it comes to inciting lust has been compared solidly to arguing in favor of giving drugs to a drug addict in my eyes and I won't rehash it.) If your position is really that using rape in a different way that the common usage somehow diminishes the seriousness of rape or the damage it does to victims, I'd argue you're wrong, but this is not the forum for that discussion. Since I'm not out to offend people with my word choice:

Music incites emotion.  Naturally.  It's pretty innate in humanity so I don't see how having incite emotion would be that terrible.    It's just a mechanical way of representing a very skillful, supernatural music. 

It all depends on how you narrate take outs.

I'd say the Devil's Gifts are Tainted and using full-on Incite Emotion is still an invasion of someone's mind and a Bad Thing.

In the books, there's isn't a single instance that I can recall where such a thing wasn't a personal violation, violent, and destructive to the victim's psyche (on an often permanent basis, though you sometimes can learn to cope with such changes). This is certainly the case with and point of Lasting Incite Emotion, at the very least. The main exception to this that I can think of is Thomas' work at the hair salon, but he's still invading their mind and stealing their lifeforce, just a tiny bit at a time to minimize his impact. The argument "it makes them feel good" when it comes to inciting lust has been compared solidly to arguing in favor of giving drugs to a drug addict in my eyes and I won't rehash it.

Since the book (which I understand is not canon) says "Dark or morally “corrupt” emotions (lust, wrath, despair, and others) are the usual ones available," and this is a fiddle made by the Devil himself, using its power to force an emotion from someone is inherently tainted and a Bad Thing. Music can elicit an emotional response from people--but not every piece of music does this for everyone, the emotions people feel when they listen to the same song can from person to person, and the emotional response you get from listening to music isn't based on whether you're incredibly Disciplined or not. Furthermore, the intensity of the emotions they feel isn't determined by the musician (via the value of the roll in our game) but their own personal psychological response to the music they're hearing. The musician's skill obviously does affect this, but it does not define it.

Unless there's a legend about this outside of the Charlie Daniel's Band song that I don't know about: Johnny wasn't looking to get better at the fiddle, he boasted he was the best fiddler ever. This drew the Devil, as such boasts are wont to do, who bet Johnny he wasn't the best, and enticed him with a fiddle of pure gold (which, by the way, would weigh at least 18 kg/40 lbs using standard violin construction, and sound terrible...but this is magic ). Unlike something like the Crossroads stories, this one isn't a trade of soul for skill, it's just an instrument the Devil played...and the Devil gifting a cursed Fiddle that grants power at the expense of that power hurting those around you whether you want it to or not sounds right up his alley.

That's just where my thoughts are with this item. The truth doesn't have to follow the legend completely, and you're welcome to interpret Incite Emotion differently and/or allow emotions that aren't "dark and morally corrupt" if you want to. You could build a hundred different variant fiddles and not break the surface of possibility.

[Quantus]

"Rape" is a word, much like "retarded," has a somewhat broad definition but has come to be used almost exclusively to mean one thing in common usage. Given that every single instance of inciting emotions/invading a mind in the books has been explicitly defined as a personal violation, violent, and destructive to the victim's psyche (on an often permanent basis, though you sometimes can learn to cope with such changes) makes "mindrape" an accurate word to me, insofar as I interpret how worming your way into someone's mind works in the books. (The main exception to this that I can think of is Thomas' work at the hair salon, but he's still invading their psyche and stealing their life-force, just a tiny bit at a time to minimize his impact as much as he can. The argument "it makes them feel good" when it comes to inciting lust has been compared solidly to arguing in favor of giving drugs to a drug addict in my eyes and I won't rehash it.) If your position is really that using rape in a different way that the common usage somehow diminishes the seriousness of rape or the damage it does to victims, I'd argue you're wrong, but this is not the forum for that discussion. Since I'm not out to offend people with my word choice:

And Id further challenge the interpretation that all mental effects shown in the books are Lawbreaking.  Sleep spells are common (if Grey) as are Avoidance Spells.  Mouse's Emergency Bark affects their minds (waking them up alert and energetic).  The Merlin used a large scale mental communication spell complete with video-game style Minimap. Harry's Love Potion #9 in SK.  Molly uses illusions all the time.  Post-TC mental defense training.  All of these are mental effects, and none of them are Illegal.  The line for the two relevant Laws are: Actual mental penetration without permission (ie mind-reading) and that can still medically be done without harm (if you are good enough, like any surgery), and Thralldom as in fully dominating the Will of the target (as opposed to more gentle and resistible influence which is allowed)

[dragoonbuster]

And Id further challenge the interpretation that all mental effects shown in the books are Lawbreaking.  Sleep spells are common (if Grey) as are Avoidance Spells.  Mouse's Emergency Bark affects their minds (waking them up alert and energetic).  The Merlin used a large scale mental communication spell complete with video-game style Minimap. Harry's Love Potion #9 in SK.  Molly uses illusions all the time.  Post-TC mental defense training.  All of these are mental effects, and none of them are Illegal.  The line for the two relevant Laws are: Actual mental penetration without permission (ie mind-reading) and that can still medically be done without harm (if you are good enough, like any surgery), and Thralldom as in fully dominating the Will of the target (as opposed to more gentle and resistible influence which is allowed)

I'm referring to specifically "inciting emotions/invading a mind" in my discussion and that doesn't include all mental effects. There's a difference between a "mental effect" and forcing your way inside someone's head; some of these examples are certainly walking the line like the love potion...and I believe that's an outlier as it seems like Butcher has changed a few rules about how Lawbreaking works and how evocation works after the first book or two. With the discussion later in the books regarding Laws and their relationship to Free Will, the love potion certainly is counter to free will.

And there's the Grey area of the Dormius spell that is a gentle calming hypnotic suggestion more than a "GO TO SLEEP" forced effect. Avoidance spells are certainly Grey but still aren't the same as getting inside someone's head to me; they send out a psychic wave of "hey, you should pay attention to something else..." not "YOU CAN'T LOOK AT ME."

Others, like the mental communication--a mental shout out across a room (that presumably could have been blocked out by the other wizards if they wished and Langtry wouldn't have forced his way past said defense) is not the same as getting into someone's head and whispering Kill yourself over and over in someone's subconscious (or what-have-you).

As far as Mouse's Bark, I'd be willing to bet that people who hear it are a bit off and jumpy for a couple days, but whether or not that's true the effect was described more as a counter-effect to the magic already being worked than an additional mental assault as far as I recall.

The Corpsetaker commented on the Council's mental defense tactics as being crap and outdated because the WC won't "press" you very hard in teaching you those defenses...and then they don't actually break into your mind and root around if you fail--if they did, they'd cause problems; IIRC Harry and Molly basically play mental capture the flag or something (and their preparations were more intense than the usual).

Molly's illusions don't cloud people's minds any more than a Fae's Glamour does--they magically alter the way light interacts with objects, not how your brain interprets that light.

As far as "surgical mind reading" there's no evidence that it doesn't still leave lasting damage since the only example I recall is Molly reading Morgan and he died shortly afterward so we don't know. Assuming it's flawless in terms of direct damage--it's still an invasion of privacy, revocation of free will, and if the victim is aware of what happens (which they will subconsciously at least) they still has a high chance of psychological issues whether they're directly induced or not because "someone was fiddling with my brain" is tough to get over for the average mortal.

Thralldom can be "gentle" as well and whether you punch someone in the brain or just squeeze your fingers into it slowly, you're still doing something awful to them...Elaine was a Fine Thrall and it took her years to get over it. Whether you can resist someone's mental influence or not, you can't use magic to make them do things or you're going to damage them whether it's total domination or not. Molly certainly didn't "fully dominate" her friends to turn off their addiction but she drove one completely insane and the other might recover after years. "Allowed" spells of that nature like sleep spells are, as far as I interpret it, allowed on willing subjects only and still only a light brush across the psyche. Harry's Dormius spell wouldn't have worked on someone who didn't want to get to sleep already and forcing it on them would've been Bad for them (and Lawbreaking for Harry).

[Quantus]

I'm referring to specifically "inciting emotions/invading a mind" in my discussion and that doesn't include all mental effects. There's a difference between a "mental effect" and forcing your way inside someone's head;

Precisely.  Pirate Jack was saying that it's easy to declare all mental effects to be wihtout permission are damaging thus Lawbreaking, and that therefore any Incite Emotion effect by supernatural means would qualify.

Molly's illusions don't cloud people's minds any more than a Fae's Glamour does--they magically alter the way light interacts with objects, not how your brain interprets that light.

Some do, or at least some legal but grey illusions do, not clear on her brand post-lea. Harry explained it in Changes: 

"Il­lu­sions are a fas­ci­nat­ing branch of mag­ic. There are two ba­sic ways to man­age them. One, you can cre­ate an im­age and put it in some­one else’s head. There’s no ac­tu­al vis­ible ob­ject there, but their brain tells them that it’s there, big as life—a phan­tasm. It’s walk­ing re­al close to the bor­ders of the Laws of Mag­ic to go that way, but it could be very ef­fec­tive.

The sec­ond method is the cre­ation of an ac­tu­al vis­ible ob­ject or crea­ture—a kind of holo­gram. Those things are much hard­er to pro­duce, be­cause you have to pour a lot more en­er­gy in­to them, and while a phan­tasm us­es a foe’s own mind to cre­ate con­sis­ten­cy with­in the il­lusion, you’ve got to do it the hard way with holo­man­cy."

As far as "surgical mind reading" there's no evidence that it doesn't still leave lasting damage since the only example I recall is Molly reading Morgan and he died shortly afterward so we don't know.

Im assuming a bunch of it had to be happening when LTW and the GK were fixing the programming left over after TC. It was referenced but didnt happen on screen.  Depending on symptoms permission may or may not have been an issue.

[Shaft]

I don't know if Sponsored Magic is right since the Devil would be the sponsor and he wants his fiddle back.   Unless the sponsor is someone else like Bacchus... in which case our hero might be some kind of catspaw in a game between the Devil and Dionysus...

Charlie Daniels
High Concept: Helluva Fiddler
Trouble: Plays a pretty good fiddle, but the Devil wants his due
Background Aspect: The Devil laid that golden fiddle down at Grandpa Johnny's feet
Rising Conflict: Music runs in the family
Aspect: I'm a lover, not a fighter
Aspect: NEVER second fiddle!!!
Aspect: Strike the right note.

Skills (35):
Superb (+5): Conviction, Performance (+6 w/ string instruments, +7 w/ violins, +8 w/ Golden Fiddle)
Great (+4): Lore, Rapport
Good (+3): Deceit, Presence
Fair (+2): Discipline, Empathy, Scholarship
Average (+1): Pick 5 skills

Powers:
Item of Power: Golden Fiddle [+2]
Affects the following:
Ritual
Marked by Power [-1]
Channeling (Music) [-2]
Incite Emotion (happiness, sadness) at range, lasting [-5]
Magical Virtuoso [-1] allows user to swap Performance for Discipline to channeling musical magic or incite emotions through the instrument.
Exceptional Quality: +1 to performance rolls [-1]

Stunts:
Master Violinist: +1 to Performance w/ String instuments, +2 Performance w/ Violins


Total Refresh Cost: -9

[Haru]

I don't know if Sponsored Magic is right since the Devil would be the sponsor and he wants his fiddle back.

Nowhere is it said that the sponsor has to be willing. The power just represents a character with magic from a source that isn't himself. Usually, the sponsor is willing, since they have more power than the recipient. But circumstances can change.

[Shaft]

Nowhere is it said that the sponsor has to be willing. The power just represents a character with magic from a source that isn't himself. Usually, the sponsor is willing, since they have more power than the recipient. But circumstances can change.

From Your Story, page 287

"Sponsored magic is the name we’re giving to spellcasting that draws on power sources other than the caster himself (he can still draw on his own power; it’s just not an exclusive arrangement). These power sources, called sponsors, are at least semi-aware, if not fully-aware, entities. Ancient and strange and potent, they have agendas of their own, and they view those to whom they grant a modicum of their own power as their agents throughout Creation.

Sponsored magic, then, is the result of a contract, pact, or other binding arrangement, implicit or explicit... If you take a consequence from sponsored magic, whether from backlash or just because, it gives the sponsor a window to compel you in various ways."

[blackstaff67]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with you. I don't have the books with me, but IIRC from the Paranet Papers, when you perform magic with Sponsored Magic. it's going to have the flavor of the Sponsor whether or not the caster wills it.  Not only lthat, but the effect or power is going to have to be in line with what the Sponsor wants.  If you're using the Devil's instruments (which might have an Agenda all their own), then you are playing with fire (pun unintended).  I'm not going to go all the way and slap Lawbreaker on someone, but I will tell that player that there may be some negative side- or after-effects when the scene is over and done with--normally to the victim. 

And White Council Wardens may play it safe anyway.  Wouldn't you?  After all, the object is to tell interesting stories.  Using the Devil's instruments in one moments while hoping there won't be any ill consequences is just whistling in the dark...and plain boring.

[Quantus]

From Your Story, page 287

"Sponsored magic is the name we’re giving to spellcasting that draws on power sources other than the caster himself (he can still draw on his own power; it’s just not an exclusive arrangement). These power sources, called sponsors, are at least semi-aware, if not fully-aware, entities. Ancient and strange and potent, they have agendas of their own, and they view those to whom they grant a modicum of their own power as their agents throughout Creation.

Sponsored magic, then, is the result of a contract, pact, or other binding arrangement, implicit or explicit... If you take a consequence from sponsored magic, whether from backlash or just because, it gives the sponsor a window to compel you in various ways."

I'd still agree with Haru that an unwilling/unaware Sponsor should be allowed, especially in the case of a sponsor that is only "Semi-aware."  But even in the case of a fully conscious, malevolent Sponsor Id think it could still happen if said sponsor was trapped by the results of a Bargain/Contest.  However, in the case of such a hostile sponsor Id expect it to be taking a much more active than normal role in making sure you regret ever second and ever use of their Power. 

By one interpretation of the setting you could easily fit the Blackstaff and Mother Winter into this mold, for example.