Create water and earth?

[Zexar]

I have a doubt with water and earth magic.

When you use fire magic you summon or create that element. No need to have a fire nearby, you just create and control fire right?

Is the same with water and earth magic? can a wizard summon a water jet from his hand? can he summon a rock? No ectoplasm, the real thing.

(also, is water magic also ice magic? can a wizard summon or use existing water to immovilize a foe in a prision of ice?)

[Haru]

Fire is a process, not an element. You concentrate more energy into a small space and that energy will build up as heat and presto: fire. That's easy as in "lifting an engine block" easy. You need a lot of muscle to pull it off, but it isn't complicated. That's why, as far as Harry is concerned, magical fire behaves as regular fire, as soon as it is summoned.
The same goes for wind, as that's just moving air around. Lots of power, not a lot of brain needed.

That's not true for water or earth, those are actual substances. Creating them as seemings (ectoplasm) is easy, because ectoplasm is malleable like that. The actual stuff is a lot harder. We are talking E=mc˛ times harder. Creating matter out of Energy is, more or less, the scope of a god or maybe an archangel.

Then again, we are talking about wizards here. Wizards cheat. So because you are very adapt at earth magic, you have a pretty good connection to some parts of the nevernever that are related to earth. While stuff from there would still be ectoplasm, you can use the place as a conduit. You can prepare a pair of gloves to allow you to rip open a small opening that will always connect to the same place, because you prepared the gloves for that. Now there's a spell construct in place that opens another portal back to reality to a place you prepared as well. From there, you can draw anything earth related to you.
Maybe the second glove acts as a sort of dial that allows you to get the second portal close to whatever material you need, as long as you prepared it.

It would be a lot of work to prepare, and I'm not quite sure if it's actually worth it, but it is certainly doable, if you are dedicated enough.

Ice can be water magic, but it can also be fire magic. Fire deals with focusing energy into one place. If you take the energy from one place, that place will freeze quickly. Water is about dissipating energy. If you dissipate a lot of energy from one place into its surroundings, that place will freeze.
Harry does pretty much that, by the way. Only he doesn't use conjured water, just water vapors from the air, which is almost always there, anyway. He just condenses it around the bad guys and then freezes it, all with the same spell.

[Taran]

I think 'summon' is a bit of a stretch.

As Haru says, you can create enough heat to create fire.

Harry also makes ice by removing heat - so Ice could be fire as much as it could be water or anything else.

I think you can 'summon' any element you want.

to summon earth, maybe you collect all the ambient dust in the air, or in the room to create a compact stone.  Or maybe you just rip it out of the ground.

to summon water, maybe you condense it out of the air.  An aspect like 'high humidy' would give you a boost to a spell like that.  The elements are all around you - I think that's why they are the building-blocks of spell casting:  everything has some part of each element.

Really, it's up to your imagination what you can use.  What is earth anyways?  is it dirt?  stone? pavement? cement? flesh?  Everything breaks down and becomes earth.  Gravity can also be under earth.  So you can just pick stuff up (including your enemy) using earth magic.

It all depends on the wizard.  Some earth wizards may not be able to summon earth because their perspective doesn't allow it.

[Zexar]

If we put this issue 100% sciency, fire is a rapid oxidation, and for that you need something to oxidize, thus creating fire from nothing means that you must create some matter, and THEN heat it up to form the chain chemical reaction so cold "fire". And by that line of thought, what you need to create gravity falls into that line too. I think that in the game the element has more esoteric meanings and mechanics, so I think fire is a thing as much as earth. On the other hand, I cant recall anyone creating water or earth from thin air in the books, so I'm not sure what to think.

But if we use the no-summoning approach, if you need actual water in your surroundings to make a water jet for example, this means that you can use an aspect like "nearby water" just like the "nearby tree" in the "Grasping Branches" spell right? (pag. 294)

Also, if you have enough water around, can you use magically it to make it run under something so it disrupts some magic or demon? can you even affect running water with magic??

I love magic theory

[Quantus]

I have a doubt with water and earth magic.

When you use fire magic you summon or create that element. No need to have a fire nearby, you just create and control fire right?

Is the same with water and earth magic? can a wizard summon a water jet from his hand? can he summon a rock? No ectoplasm, the real thing.

I want to say I heard something recently (paranet Papers maybe) that said most water Mages used ectoplasm to create their water. We know from the novels that winter typically makes their ice with ectoplasm (SK) but have seen harry do it with real water and thermal effects. 

At the end of the day I think the only practical difference is that Ectoplasm would be a truly unlimited supply but be vulnerable to circle traps and similar effects, whereas "real" moisture would be a finite supply and need to follow more practical Conservation to a extent, so would be affected by dry environments (deserts, or inside a burning building). 

I dont see why you couldnt make your characters capable of both, and just make it so that they must divert energy/attention for Creating/Calling Water, so they could control more natural Water by volume than they could Summon.  So they might only summon a firehose or less, but they could flood a small river, for example.

also, is water magic also ice magic? can a wizard summon or use existing water to immovilize a foe in a prision of ice?

The Winter Knight can, at least; he did it in Skin Game to some thugs.  The old winter Knight's ice turned to ectoplasm when it melted though, fwiw.

[Taran]

At the end of the day I think the only practical difference is that Ectoplasm would be a truly unlimited supply but be vulnerable to circle traps and similar effects, whereas "real" moisture would be a finite supply and need to follow more practical Conservation to a extent, so would be affected by dry environments (deserts, or inside a burning building)..

I really like this.  It's a great source for compels.  I'm playing a water mage of sorts, and I've been narrating it, mostly, as using ambient water so having a scene aspect like Arid Desert would make things more difficult.

[Quantus]

I really like this.  It's a great source for compels.  I'm playing a water mage of sorts, and I've been narrating it, mostly, as using ambient water so having a scene aspect like Arid Desert would make things more difficult.

Ooh, good. Since you are playing one, how would you scale it?  Qualitatively it makes sense to me that you'd have to operate on a much smaller scale with summoned water than what you could manipulate with natural pre-existing materials, but Im not sure how to best go about implementing it. 

[dragoonbuster]

Given how Carlos' magic works, I'd say you can create earth and water from ectoplasm as needed, if you think your magic can work that way. Maybe some mages think they have to have a water source nearby. That's handled easily with compels. I have a wizard that condenses storm clouds around his body from ambient moisture when he evocates with lightning, though that's just a narrative thing and isn't the same as drawing enough moisture to dump a bucket of water on someone's head.

However, the air can carry up to 2% water vapor by volume depending on humidity. If you consider the volume of, say, a standard-ish bedroom of 10x10x8 feet...that's 800 cubic feet. By volume, assuming an average of say .75% water vapor by volume in the air, that equates to 6 cubic feet of water...which is almost 45 gallons of water. So if you're outdoors, especially if it's humid, you could potentially get a lot more right from the air. If you were in a rainforest you could create a waterfall out of thin air.

As far as conjured water working to ground out magic/act as a threshold, that's been debated up and down, but I say no. It is specifically water's intrinsic properties and metaphysical importance that has to do with it's action on the supernatural and mortal magic. If you're summoning water from ectoplasm, it's not water and you know it.

Ooh, good. Since you are playing one, how would you scale it?  Qualitatively it makes sense to me that you'd have to operate on a much smaller scale with summoned water than what you could manipulate with natural pre-existing materials, but Im not sure how to best go about implementing it.

Compel a Threshold against drawing up power, like you might in running water. A threshold of 2-4 is good, depending on the circumstances. Effectively, you're going to have to make up for less water with more power.

It's also rather surprising how often [Leaky Pipes] seem to be around PCs.

If we put this issue 100% sciency, fire is a rapid oxidation, and for that you need something to oxidize, thus creating fire from nothing means that you must create some matter, and THEN heat it up to form the chain chemical reaction so cold "fire". And by that line of thought, what you need to create gravity falls into that line too.

For fire, you're combusting the air around you. Fire can be caused by rapid oxidation, but fire is a plasma and can be created in all kinds of fun ways--all you do is strip electrons off of the molecules in the air to create it. There's no need to create matter. Magic to affect gravity doesn't involve creating matter either; it's bending physics to alter the local gravitational constant.

EDIT: Simply heating up a gas hot enough is sufficient to create a plasma at a certain point. You're just pouring energy via your will into the nearby molecules until they transition from gas to plasma. And control how/where it goes, of course. Hopefully.

[Quantus]

As far as conjured water working to ground out magic/act as a threshold, that's been debated up and down, but I say no. It is specifically water's intrinsic properties and metaphysical importance that has to do with it's action on the supernatural and mortal magic. If you're summoning water from ectoplasm, it's not water and you know it.

Not sure that comparison works: Fire Magic still carries the supernatural Purifying aspect of Fire, and per WOJ Water Mages are less affected by the Grounding effects of bodies of Water.  I expect it would be /harder/ to disperse the energy with fake water, and it would take a significant volume to carry the energy away (ie. no self-contained no waterbending circles), but it would still be possible.   Harry says over and over he can use magic to call up Fire, but then it acts like Fire naturally would, unless he goes to an extra effort to further shape it or whatever; I expect a certain amount of the same principle to apply to water, so long as it's still energized to be water (which is where circle traps come in).

[dragoonbuster]

Not sure that comparison works: Fire Magic still carries the supernatural Purifying aspect of Fire, and per WOJ Water Mages are less affected by the Grounding effects of bodies of Water.  I expect it would be /harder/ to disperse the energy with fake water, and it would take a significant volume to carry the energy away (ie. no self-contained no waterbending circles), but it would still be possible.   Harry says over and over he can use magic to call up Fire, but then it acts like Fire naturally would, unless he goes to an extra effort to further shape it or whatever; I expect a certain amount of the same principle to apply to water, so long as it's still energized to be water (which is where circle traps come in).

Fire magic creates true and honest-to-god fire, though. There's no ectoplasm involved there. With magically-manipulated but real water, you can create thresholds and stuff, I'm fine with that. The debate here is whether ectoplasmic water is metaphysically the same as water, and I just don't think it is.

EDIT: Of course, it still has the entropic properties, because that's something you can achieve through will alone. Instead of forcing a vampire back because of running water being a metaphysical barrier, it can't cross because it'll be melted. There are many paths to the top of the mountain.

[Quantus]

Fire magic creates true and honest-to-god fire, though. There's no ectoplasm involved there. With magically-manipulated but real water, you can create thresholds and stuff, I'm fine with that.

This is a side point that Ive debated before, but fwiw I dont actually think you can unless you have a continuous source and discharge of the water; since the whole thing works on a principle of dispersing the energies, there needs to be a constant supply of new water (or huge reservoir like the Lake) to give that energy somewhere to go.  Otherwise you arent diluting and dispersing anything. 

The debate here is whether ectoplasmic water is metaphysically the same as water, and I just don't think it is.

Fair enough, that's up to the DM of the table at this point.  I think that so long as it is still empowered to be water it would act in all way as water, including that aspect, but I dont have much to definitively say so.  I look at how Winter Ice is ectoplasm but Id expect it to count as Ice for metaphysical purposes, and how NN food can be fully metabolized into a person's cells to the point where if they live off of it for too many years they risk going splat when they return to the mortal world.  Given those two things I dont see much reason for broad qualitative differences.  But that discounts a lot of factors, not the least of which is table balance. 

[dragoonbuster]

This is a side point that Ive debated before, but fwiw I dont actually think you can unless you have a continuous source and discharge of the water; since the whole thing works on a principle of dispersing the energies, there needs to be a constant supply of new water (or huge reservoir like the Lake) to give that energy somewhere to go.  Otherwise you arent diluting and dispersing anything. 
Fair enough, that's up to the DM of the table at this point.  I think that so long as it is still empowered to be water it would act in all way as water, including that aspect, but I dont have much to definitively say so.  I look at how Winter Ice is ectoplasm but Id expect it to count as Ice for metaphysical purposes, and how NN food can be fully metabolized into a person's cells to the point where if they live off of it for too many years they risk going splat when they return to the mortal world.  Given those two things I dont see much reason for broad qualitative differences.  But that discounts a lot of factors, not the least of which is table balance.

I treat magically-created thresholds, etc, from water evocation according to standard mechanics. Meaning they're maneuvers or Blocks. If you want to ground out an ectoplasmic construct, you need to take it out. There's no mechanical difference between any other evocation, and it maintains balance. Your point about "refreshing" the water is good, and I agree, but for short-term action that's still easily narrated IMO.

You're winning me over on the ectoplasm-as-water argument, though.

[Zexar]

For fire, you're combusting the air around you. Fire can be caused by rapid oxidation, but fire is a plasma and can be created in all kinds of fun ways--all you do is strip electrons off of the molecules in the air to create it. There's no need to create matter

You can't combust air. There is nothing to combust there. The air gives you the oxidizer (oxygen), but you need something else to oxidize. Anyways, not a chemistry lesson; I don't think the game (and the Dresdenverse) was ment to treat fire magic solely as "a magic that lets you move ionized gas around". So, in the Dresdenverse, fire has to be an actual THING, just like air, water, earth and spirit.

I don't know, I don't like the idea of having some elements summoning the real thing and others summoning fake ones. No ectoplasm water, no ectoplasm earth; true water and earth or nothing. On the other hand, I dont like the idea of a wizard summoning real walls from thin air, or small rivers. So... I don't know, as I said.

You're winning me over on the ectoplasm-as-water argument, though.

The question is: Rivers in the Nevernever wash away magic? if they do, ectoplasmic water does too. Simple.

Using pure logic, if summoning water and disrupt a wizard with it where that easy, many of the wardens would do so. But they not, not even Carlos. So, there has to be a catch with it. Possible maybe, but certanly not easy or right away practical.

Following the logic, that means a wizard cannot summon water that disrupts magic (being that ectoplasmic water does not wash away magic or that a wizard can't summon water) and/or that is needed too much of it, like summoning-a-freaking-forestal-fire amount of mojo.

Hmmmmmm... I'm leaning towards the no-summon approach...

[dragoonbuster]

You can't combust air. There is nothing to combust there. The air gives you the oxidizer (oxygen), but you need something else to oxidize. Anyways, not a chemistry lesson; I don't think the game (and the Dresdenverse) was ment to treat fire magic solely as "a magic that lets you move ionized gas around". So, in the Dresdenverse, fire has to be an actual THING, just like air, water, earth and spirit.

"Combust" as a technical term is rapid burning of fuel in the presence of oxygen so technically speaking, no, "air" on its own generally can't combust through normal means because there isn't a high enough fuel/oxy ratio...but this is magic. You can come up different explanations for how it's done at a molecular level but at the end of the day, using magic to bend rules like localized entropy and enthalpy, it's not hard to affect "combustion" of the air (which isn't only oxygen, CO2, and nitrogen...) to create a ball of actual fire, whereas unless you're in a REALLY dusty place, you're not going to pull earth from the air. And no, fire magic can't be used only do that, but it's the most common use.

Of course, earth is still available in many places and it's rare to lose access to it. Given the makeup of aggregate in concrete (sand, natural gravel, and crushed stone being the most common) you can get away with manipulating concrete almost as easily as straight earth. Only being high up in a building, in a plane, or being over the ocean/a lake will really ever get you away from a source of "earth" to use. You just might create a lot of property damage   And if you've got fire evocation as well, you can justify manipulating metals too, meaning you're able to find something to use just about anywhere civilization is.

The question is: Rivers in the Nevernever wash away magic?

No specific word on this, but I highly doubt it. The NeverNever at it's core is whole-cloth magic. But there is a difference between mortal magic and other magic, and there's a difference between random "sustain the illusion" magic in the NN and magic guided by human will. If the human will believes the water should ground things out, that might be able to empower the summoned water enough to have it act like regular water. Who's to say? Up to the GM. At the end of the day, I think I'd leave it up to the player's desire for how their PC's magic works. They can't do anything mechanically with it that's different either way, and I've got plenty of compel options for wizards without worrying about whether they have enough of their element nearby to throw around.

Using pure logic, if summoning water and disrupt a wizard with it where that easy, many of the wardens would do so.

Who said it was easy? Magic works totally differently for everyone based on their teaching, experiences, and belief systems. Not all elements come to all wizards equally (obviously; look at Harry vs Hernandez). Everyone has their preference. It's arguable that lightning is a far better element to attack someone is than fire due to fallout and property damage issues (when "purification" isn't an issue), but lightning doesn't come as easily to some wizards as it does to others. Harry has said he pretty much is incapable of water evocation. I get the impression--based on Hernandez's example, what we know about elements and personality types, and the nature of water in a metaphysical sense--that you've got to have a certain "go with the flow" mindset to use it well--something Wardens tend to be short on, I'm betting.

[Taran]

Hmmmmmm... I'm leaning towards the no-summon approach...

I don't think it's worth overthinking or penalizing your players based on what element they choose. 

Why should spirit be any better than water, or earth?  What is spirit magic made from?  How is it any more likely to be effective?  It's not even a 'thing'.

I think the elements you need are around you.

Leave it to the realm of compels and shifts of power.  If something requires too much power or volume, then compel.

If you are trying to ground out a spell or a circle, that is a counter-spell based on the power of the spell you are countering.  Let the player decide how it works.  Water erodes, Fire purifies, earth grounds it out, air spreads out the energies.

If you are trying to block magic, it's a block action.  The type of magic dictates the narrative.  If it's really dry and you don't think they should be able to pull water out of the air or summon it, use compels.

Compels should be used for the 'weakness' of any type of magic.  Other than that, it should only be limited by your player's imagination.

Same with their strengths.  If there's lots of water - whether it's in the Nevernever or no, you can use a compel to have it ground out magic, or if the players want to manipulate it, offer a compel to say that body of water acts as a 2-shift threshold.  Now all their magic is harder to use.

Fire goes out of control

Earth is inert.  Once you make a big pile of dirt or throw rocks around, it can create a scene aspect/obstacle.

So, yeah.  I'm all for letting people whip up whatever element they want until it bites them in the ass...or until they can't.  All compels.