Aspects as effects

[ravnwing]

So I'm working up to run a DFRPG (not ideal because I dont have the most experience with it, but hell I've had the rulebook for years, why not) and I'm having trouble with figuring out how aspects as effects work. When you are looking into maneuvers it talks about one of the most common things you can do with them is setting up a temporary aspect on a scene or person. One of the examples that they have is PINNED, though they dont really go any more into it. My problem is that in reading about aspects all I'm really seeing is the ability to invoke them for bonuses or compelled by them to earn fate. Doesnt that imply that a player who is PINNED can just ignore it by buying out the compel for a fate point? or do these status effects function differently?

[Haru]

One thing to remember is that not everything makes a good aspect. Sure, you could roll fists to give someone the aspect "pinned", but then what? If you don't follow this up with a grapple, the aspect will probably be gone as soon as do something again, unless that something is making sure the other guy is still "pinned". Fights are messy and quick.

Then again, there's "invoke for effect", which lets you do all kinds of cool things. Though I have to admit, I forget to utilize it far too often myself. It basically lets you enforce the truth about an aspect. Doesn't always have to be done as a compel, though it might, if it is a game changer.

So for instance, "pinned" doesn't really do much. But you could say that you are tipping over a bookshelf and as luck has it, it falls on one of your opponents. He's now got the "pinned under a bookshelf" aspect on himself. Now in itself, it doesn't do that much, because you can only invoke it for a +2 on something. But he's lying under a bleepin' bookshelf, he's not going to be doing all that much for now. To enforce that you can use your free tag to invoke the aspect for effect. The GM decides that the bookshelf isn't too heavy, so getting free of it would be a difficulty of 2 on a might roll. The trapped character can do other things, as long as it makes sense for him to do them buried under a bookshelf. But he would need to take an action to free himself from the bookshelf before doing much else.

"Invoke for effect" is really your goto method of doing anything messy with aspects, anything that doesn't really fit into the rest. Often times, these effects can also be ground zero for a round of mass compels. For example, you invoke the crack in the only supporting column of the cavern to say that it breaks and now everyone inside is more concerned with getting their hide to safety rather than keeping hitting each other. You could, of course, buy out of the compel, saying that while you run out, you keep a clear enough head to keep shooting the bad guys to make it harder for them to escape the cave in.
These things can often be used to completely or partially rewrite a scene. Like the example above, it goes from a fight in a cave to the escape from the cave.

[ravnwing]

okay, so why i bring it up is one of my players is a spell caster and wants to use a spell that has the ground grab the feet of everyone in a zone. so that would be a zone wide (2 shifts of power) maneuver spell (3 shifts) used against opponents acrobatics, or possibly might. what I'm concerned about is what to do once they are grabbed. How could this work

[Rossbert]

That would be a block against athletics more than a maneuver.

[PirateJack]

Agreed, a zone-wide block against movement would be more appropriate for a spell like that. He'd be looking at a lot of power if he wanted to make it last a while, though.

[Haru]

Ah. That's much less a maneuver and more of a block.

You've got 3 things you can do: Attack, block, maneuver.

An attack is easy, it's when you want to take someone out directly.

A block is when you try to keep someone from doing something. That includes but isn't limited to hurting you, though it is most often used that way.

Maneuvers are for everything else that isn't covered by the above.

So we are dealing with a block. Taking the numbers from your example, that would result in a 3 shift strong zone wide block against movement. That block would last for 1 exchange, unless you dedicate more power to duration (1 shift for 1 additional exchange). If any of the people caught in the block can break through it, the block is gone for everyone else as well.

You can also try blocks that block more than one thing, you are basically limited by your imagination. The drawback though is that anything a block can block can also break the block. (Say that 3 times fast...) So it's often times better to do a limited, very specific block, rather than a broad spectrum thing, so it won't be countered by the first guy doing anything.

But the ground grabbing thing could also be done as a maneuver, of course, if that's what you want. For example, if you are running away from someone, you could do this as a maneuver an invoke it on your turn, to help you increase the distance to your pursuer. The same thing can be done in a number of ways, always depending on your intent rather than the means. That can be a bit confusing.

[dragoonbuster]

One thing to remember is that not everything makes a good aspect. Sure, you could roll fists to give someone the aspect "pinned", but then what? If you don't follow this up with a grapple, the aspect will probably be gone as soon as do something again, unless that something is making sure the other guy is still "pinned". Fights are messy and quick.

Lot of good advice here. I think the quote above sums it up well.

Also, like some have recommended, this is probably better as a Block, particularly because it's against a group of people and not a single target. Note that "+2 power per zone" is a house-rule for maneuvers, and that the rules define maneuvers as either targeted against one opponent or scene-wide, for the same case. No mention of zones is made, actually.

Maneuvers and Blocks get interchanged easily. To tell which one is the right one to choose: are you trying to prevent something from happening, or are you trying to create an advantage? The first is a Block, the second is  a Maneuver. I find most of the time that question helps.

[ravnwing]

does that mean that the action of throwing a bookcase down in someones path also counts as a block?

[Haru]

It can. But it doesn't have to. That's one of the weirdest things to wrap your head around in this game.

Throwing a bookcase (attack):
"I throw the bookcase to crush him under it."
-"Ok, roll might."
"Success, he takes X stress."

Throwing a bookcase (maneuver):
"I throw the bookcase to make it harder to move around the room."
- "Ok, roll might."
"Success, now there's books everywhere, easy to slip on one or lose your footing."

Throwing a bookcase (block):
"I throw the bookcase to block his way, so he can't follow me."
- "Ok, roll might."
"Success, now there's a bookcase in his way and he needs to get around it before he can get to me."


All those are the same action by the character, throwing the bookcase, but they are doing different things on the mechanical level, depending on what it is intended to do.

[Taran]

Also, like some have recommended, this is probably better as a Block, particularly because it's against a group of people and not a single target. Note that "+2 power per zone" is a house-rule for maneuvers, and that the rules define maneuvers as either targeted against one opponent or scene-wide, for the same case. No mention of zones is made, actually.

I was going to point this out.  In general, I don't usually allow zone-wide maneuvers. 
Scene aspect are better for spellcasting maneuvers.  Sometimes, though, scene aspects may only affect certain zones:  'Wet pavement' might only be in 3 of 5 zones if you blast a fire hydrant.

But you should try to avoid zone-wide 'targeted' aspect.  That is, maneuvers that don't affect the environment but, instead, affect every enemy in the zone.  If you want to hit multiple enemies with a maneuver, use the spray attack rules and divide the power up among however many enemies you want to hit with the aspect.

[Theogony_IX]

Other ways to invoke aspects for effect.

That sword satisfies my toughness powers catch.  I want to disarm her, so I'll roll Fists to maneuver.  Success, I'll place the aspect "Disarmed" and immediately invoke it for effect.  Now, she has to roll against the strength of my maneuver to pick up her weapon again or she can just fight me without it.

Our group's wizard has been taking a lot of punishment.  Another attack from this big baddie will probably take her out.  Her player is talking concessions with the GM.  I tell her that I have a plan, don't take the concession yet.  For my action, I roll Intimidation using the Provocation trapping.  My roll is successful, I place "Score to Settle" and immediately invoke it for effect to have this big baddie act against only me.  He will have to roll against the strength of my maneuver to remove it and act against anyone else.

We stumble through a hastily constructed gate to the Nevernever and fall right in the midst of an unfriendly Faerie court.  I really don't want this to come to blows, so I attempt a Rapport maneuver.  Success, I invoke it for effect to have my opponent talk to me and try to settle this through a social conflict before moving to a physical conflict.

Well, I lost the above social conflict and now I'm fighting about 100 winter fae.  I need to level the playing field and fast.  Luckily it is night and the only light is the moon and some torches.  I call up my air magic and to whip up a fierce storm placing the scene aspect "Pitch Black."  The clouds blot out the moon and the wind blows out the torches.  I invoke the aspect for effect saying that I can dodge actions against me with stealth rather than other skills.


The GM and the table decide what is fun and fair, and what is a strong enough effect to require a fate point (perhaps that last one is).  Another way to think of aspects invoked for effect is soft blocks.  You aren't saying a person can't do something, you are saying, they can't do it a certain way, they have to do it a certain way, or they have to deal with something else first.