Watsonian McAnally: the son of the chief physician.

[XeroOmega]

In that WoJ Jim is specifically talking about both Knights of the Coin and the Fae Court Knights, though the court knights are typically a "lifetime" endeavor. i.e. they generally don't live long.

And he's working from my simple idea that if Mac got an "out" as a starborn, the same option would possibly be available to Harry. I think the choice hasn't presented itself yet, but I do think it's coming, of course, no choice is without consequence, and it will most definitely prey on Harry's personal nobility and sense of honor.

[Lawgiver]

The question references Winter directly so idk where you get the idea that its not talking about the Fae Knights. Jim may have answered regarding the KoTC but that seems more like a misunderstanding on the questioner's part when he references what the author had said before and Jim just auto corrected that notion in his answer, or he misunderstood the question.

And that really has nothing to do with either of our points. You referenced the WOJ about Starborn to support your idea that Mac was also one, I provided it for you simply to add to your post if you wanted...my issue with that idea is that you attribute the evidence by asking who exactly would be able to be 'out'? And since we know Harry is a Starborn I think that is not a very strong argument because it pre-supposed that Harry will have the same ability to be 'out' because he is a Starborn (intentionally or not that's how the idea is presented). And I think that from a Doylist view that would be far too easy an out for Harry and Jim would never allow it, and from a Watsonian view it is unsupported in the story because, by your model, a Starborn who is 'out' was very much brought back in, being attacked, kidnapped and shot. That at the end of the day him deciding to 'not' be a Starborn for all intents and purposes didn't do anything to keep him uninvolved. That was my only quibble.

I think you're confusing two posters, cause I haven't really approached much of what you've attributed to me, but... ok.

[Eldest Gruff]

I think you're confusing two posters, cause I haven't really approached much of what you've attributed to me, but... ok.

Hmm...yeah, I meant to quote on the second part Xero...my bad.

[Eldest Gruff]

I think the "knights" referenced by the questioner were KotCs, not Knights of the Fae Courts. Murphy and Susan are both examples of KotC that hold a sword for a short time; both during the Chichen Itza assault (yes, I'm saying Murphy has already been a KotC, a 'one knight stand' so to speak ). Rapid changeover in KotCs doesn't, to me, provide Harry any 'out' from his position.

The question references Winter directly so idk where you get the idea that its not talking about the Fae Knights. Jim may have answered regarding the KoTC but that seems more like a misunderstanding on the questioner's part when he references what the author had said before and Jim just auto corrected that notion in his answer, or he misunderstood the question.

In that WoJ Jim is specifically talking about both Knights of the Coin and the Fae Court Knights, though the court knights are typically a "lifetime" endeavor. i.e. they generally don't live long.

And he's working from my simple idea that if Mac got an "out" as a starborn, the same option would possibly be available to Harry. I think the choice hasn't presented itself yet, but I do think it's coming, of course, no choice is without consequence, and it will most definitely prey on Harry's personal nobility and sense of honor.

You referenced the WOJ about Starborn to support your idea that Mac was also one, I provided it for you simply to add to your post if you wanted...my issue with that idea is that you attribute the evidence by asking who exactly would be able to be 'out' and then give that ability to a Starborn. And since we know Harry is a Starborn I think that is not a very strong argument because it pre-supposed that Harry will have the same ability to be 'out' because he is a Starborn (intentionally or not that's how the idea is presented). And I think that from a Doylist view that would be far too easy an out for Harry and Jim would never allow it, and from a Watsonian view it is unsupported in the story because, by your model, a Starborn who is 'out' was very much brought back in, being attacked, kidnapped and shot. That at the end of the day him deciding to 'not' be a Starborn for all intents and purposes didn't do anything to keep him uninvolved. That was my only quibble.

[XeroOmega]

Essentially down to Wizards and Guardians of the Gate. Perhaps someone even older or possibly unique.

I attributed it to each of these entities. Mac could be any of them. I realize it is a shot in the dark, but "unique" is about the only quality of the starborn we can really be certain of thus far. I don't think Mac could have gotten out from being Starborn if he were one, no more than Harry can be out from being Malcolm's son. I think he could have gotten out of being active in the supernatural world. I think he could get back in at any time, but it wouldn't be without dire consequence.

[wizard nelson]

Wow. Impressive thread, truly impressive. You actually catalogued a lot of Harry is Odin references in there I forgot existed too(also Mac is a tall spare man with sometimes wolffish features just like the other too). The only thing, you said you don't like the chosen onecentric plots. It IS very much core to the plot, but only because that's the way it was wrote, if you look at time/events repeating themselves and add in the nudges of free will you actually find Harry is only chosen because of his specific actions or 'path'  another way to say it

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If time repeats itself, and a Merlin archetype will arise anew, so would a mab archetype, last time mab became guard because that's how it went down, per free will effecting the outcome, I lie the idea aurther was one(though Odin actually was not) and of course everyone thinks

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Harry is the next guard

so it only appears chosen hero centric from a doyalist view, because that's the story Jim chose to tell. And from a watsonian point, because Harry has been the right one to back by the 'powers that be', though they have had more than one option to watch at.

[Argonometra]

you actually find Harry is only chosen because of his specific actions or 'path'

Aye. The idea that Harry has no more tenacity than your average joe, or that just anybody would do what he's done...it rings false to me. There are plenty of times in the series when most people would give up, or switch sides, but Harry doesn't. Even when his back was broken, when his house was destroyed, he never truly gave up. 'He died doing the right thing.'
There are people like that in the world, but not many. Certainly not so much that we can consider their heroism ordinary.

[wizard nelson]

oh i agree, Harry ain't average, on the other hand I can't put myself in Harry's shoes and say I'd do anything one bit of different. I was specifically referring to the other characters that could have risen to point as the hero, marcone for instance is the person to watch in MM where Harry turned out mor for the worse. Meaning someone is always going to be he who steps to the plate. Harry just gets singled out for various reasons, Jim says so, the powers test him, by his own choice and actions he rises. Even compared to N I can think of a reason, but that one I'm going to sit on.. Interesting thing about people who ARE like that in our world, that I can tell any of them would rather have sat down with a cold beer and a good book too.

[Eldest Gruff]

Yeah, I may hate the Chosen One trope especially when it facilitates the notion that Harry's been followed or manipulated his whole life. But I accept or recognize when the signs point that way...or at least might point that way...and Mac is far less offensive because he isn't there from the outset, just from the time in Chicago. And his influence, while highly evident, is far more passive than the majority of the other theories like Margaret, Justin, Raith and the Starborn plan or Mab being there all the while and so on. Not that they don't have validity just that its much less 'this is out savior!' and more 'this kid seems interesting, lets keep an eye on him'.

[Argonometra]

It's easy figuring out what one should do, what is right. Mustering up the courage and strength to actually do it- that isn't so easy.

as the hero, marcone for instance is the person to watch

Marcone can kill monsters, but that does not define a hero. He could not have found Lash's heart, or encouraged a panicking Butters, or comforted Kelly as Harry did- these actions matter too. Maybe more than the slaying, because it's many heroes who will fight at Ragnarok- not just a single Chosen One*.
And at the end of the day, Marcone is still a parasite by choice. I don't think that getting magic Chosen One powers would change that- or that he deserves them on any moral, intellectual, or spiritual basis. It's not like there's one slot for a hero and Harry is occupying it, so Marcone can't be one. It's that, knowingly and repeatedly, he made the choice to profit on the suffering of others. And if Harry were absent/evil/dead, Marcone would still make those choices.
It's not like they're fighting over who gets to sit on a particular chair.

* and the mercenaries who want his money

[wizard nelson]

As I said, watch marcone in the mirror mirror universe. His motivations will be entirely different, or something to that effect, it's a Woj. Marcone actually has the potential for great goodness in him, it's just not been brought to the fore in the DF timeline. Essentially I think he's aurther reborn, not to get into it too deep here. First clue came in FM, he has a chapel that was moved brick for brick into his back yard(just like his castle) and a circle of tree's for 'shady business. If you know anything about Celtic worship that's a big one, they pray in the middle of trees while wearing their armor, used to scoff at Christians and their new God who didn't even wear armor or fight his own battles lol.(aurther melded Christian myth with Celtic lore FYI)

@EG I prefer to think of Harry as the choosing one instead lol. It's possible, because most of Harry is the chosen one is perception, that Harry won't be the central hero, for the end at all, but more akin to the immenence Gris, the power behind the hero. He certainly managed to do a number on butters. Impact will and the alpha's, Molly, Murphy, and indirectly but to an even greater degree, Thomas. Mmm pure WAG but what if

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Watching Harry fight the good fight for no other reason than it should be done gives Mac the push needed to get back in the game?

[Argonometra]

and a circle of tree's for 'shady business. If you know anything about Celtic worship that's a big one, they pray in the middle of trees

How is prayer equivalent to crime?

@EG I prefer to think of Harry as the choosing one instead lol. It's possible, because most of Harry is the chosen one is perception, that Harry won't be the central hero, for the end at all, but more akin to the immenence Gris, the power behind the hero.

Harry is identified with Sam and Gandalf, as well as knights in general. All have 'support' roles, protecting and/or inspiring the people they serve.
That is one reason why I like his assumption of the Mantle: he was always Molly's knight, even though he wasn't the paladin she idealized him as. In that respect, little changed.

[wizard nelson]

How is prayer equivalent to crime?

how indeed... Killing people inside the circle could be considered an offering on hallowed ground, for instance. But in general the celts were very warrior/cleric types. And of course marcone is a true hunter in spirit, oh and as nicodemus said, he would have made a good monarch just a few short centuries ago.

[Argonometra]

But in general the celts were very warrior/cleric types.

80% of Celts were corn farmers. (http://resourcesforhistory.com/Celtic_Farming_in_Britain.htm)

[wizard nelson]

80% of Celts were corn farmers. (http://resourcesforhistory.com/Celtic_Farming_in_Britain.htm)

Ok, now go look at their warrior kings and actual you know, believers. Not every warrior race was the Spartans. What they believed and why they believed it, how they chose to worship..

I couldn't resist this one

The Celts made votive offerings to their deities, which were buried in the earth or thrown into rivers or bogs. According to Barry Cunliffe, in most cases, deposits were placed in the same places on numerous occasions, indicating continual usage "over a period of time, perhaps on a seasonal basis or when a particular event, past or pending, demanded a propitiatory response."[35] In particular, there was a trend to offer items associated with warfare in watery areas, evidence for which is found not only in the Celtic regions, but also in Late Bronze Age (and therefore pre-Celtic)

so taking a body and the weapon to the same spot repeatedly is worship 

However, according to Greco-Roman accounts of the druids and other Celts, worship was held in groves, with Tacitus describing how his men cut down "groves sacred to savage rites."

savage rites indeed a shotgun blast can be.