Vilify a Spider

[Quantus]

I need to vilify a Spider.  Sounds easy at first, but I dont just need something nasty, I need Quintessential Vilified Spider, the epitome of everything we hate and fear about spiders, the reason they are right there with snakes as the most common phobia, and are literally hardwired into our brains danger-sense.

What would such a creature look and act like?

Ill give you some background:  Without getting into too much exposition, the setting is a modern urban fantasy not terribly unlike American gods, but in this case ancient spirits make pacts with special/anointed humans to take over some aspect of the modern world, if they want to stay relevant/powerful.  As an example, the Atomic Age is the result a pact with the Phoenix's; they get a place in the modern world rather than slipping into myth and loosing power.  Now the Main Character is in a position to make another such bargain, and one of the parties that approaches him is the Master/Progenitor Spider, ruler of the Arachnids (though probably at war with a Scorpion Clan somewhere).  Anyway, I want to evoke the master hunter in the center of his vast web, and something you can converse with, something more intellectual than a giant atavistic spider-monster.  But I still want him to speak to the archetypal fear that crosses so many cultures.

Any thoughts?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Sorry, I love spiders.

Make it a cat, otoh, and I could probably get places.

[Griffyn612]

Eyes
 - Their eyes are multifaceted.  What are they looking at?  What are they seeing? 
 - Their eyes are so alien that we can't comprehend them.  What are they thinking?
Speed
 - So fast.  Their stillness hypnotizes us into thinking they're dead or scared.  And then they move.  Not necessarily away from us/danger, but toward.
Reaction
 - For those that move, they typically come at you rather than fleeing.
 - For those that freeze, it doesn't seem like they're afraid.  It's like they're calculating their chances against you.
Movement
 - Aside from just their speed being alarming, their movement is creepy.  We can't easily comprehend moving so smoothly as things that have so many legs.
Web
 - Practically invisible, until you walk into it, and then you feel it everywhere.  And you know that the spider might have been on it, and now it might be on you.
 - High tensile strength for such a small material.  It clings to you, and you're left with a feeling that you can't get free of it.

Modern take on a Spider?
 - The internet, a literal web of communication connecting everyone and everything.
 - The spider collects information in its web based on pulses as its prey touches upon it, similar to spying on the web.
 - The spider's multifaceted eyes lends itself to seeing many things at once at different angles.

Purpose
 - Gathers information about everyone and everything.
 - Watches silently through electronic devices, as cameras act as its multifaceted eyes.  That sense of being watched?  Guess who.
 - Information is its poison.  It can strike at anyone, knowing their secrets, and can lay false trails as needed.
 - It operates a web that draws people in and is impossible to escape. 

Physical Manifestation
 - I imagine a figure keeping itself mostly in shadows, to conceal its movements.
 - I imagine a silent figure, leaving one wondering where it is and what it's thinking.
 - I imagine an odd speech pattern, to maintain a mysterious and alien mindset.
 - I imagine a predatory aura, leaving one in a constant state of fight or flight.
 - I imagine a still figure, that moves entirely too fast when you're not looking, and hard to track.
 - Keep the alien eyes.
 - Keep the extra limbs that move smoothly.

[Quantus]

That's actually pretty fantastic!  And you have the Modern Take and Purpose exactly right.  The MC will be making the pact for the Internet (and by exetension the Virtual World, which becomes more abstractly significant), and so it will come down to the Spiders that are the more obvious "Webmasters" but are very predatory about it, making the www a trap and hunting ground.  The contrasting option will eventually be Forest spirits, which monitor similarly complex systems, but with a purpse more aligned to cultivations and healthy growth, rather than weaponization.  fantastic.  And you have teh Modern take and Purpose exactly right.  The MC will be making the pact for the Internet, and so the Spiders will

[Griffyn612]

That's actually pretty fantastic!  And you have the Modern Take and Purpose exactly right.  The MC will be making the pact for the Internet (and by exetension the Virtual World, which becomes more abstractly significant), and so it will come down to the Spiders that are the more obvious "Webmasters" but are very predatory about it, making the www a trap and hunting ground.  The contrasting option will eventually be Forest spirits, which monitor similarly complex systems, but with a purpse more aligned to cultivations and healthy growth, rather than weaponization.  fantastic.  And you have teh Modern take and Purpose exactly right.  The MC will be making the pact for the Internet, and so the Spiders will

For the spider character then, I'd definitely go with the "less is more".  Nobody is terrified by the seen monster.  Its the unseen monster lurking in shadows or out of sight, stalking them, that scares them.  As a pinnacle Spider-concept, the master spider should be able to encompass any spider trait, such as the Trapdoor spider that hunts unseen until it strikes, or a web weaver, or a shadow lurking spider like a brown recluse or black widow. 

Drawing the main character in would be more in line, rather than having the Spider come to the character.  Glimpses of the spider would be scarier than seeing it in full, unless there's an eventual confrontation where full visibility is required.  Having the main character spinning to face where he thinks the spiders is because it moves around him in shadows, speaking from different directions, that type of thing.

As for the modern concept, I think its interesting that spiderwebs have an electrostatic charge that draws in both prey and particles drifting by.  The web will actually drift toward a nearby prey due to the charge.  The fact that devices are all electricity and temptations that draw people in, and then people end up losing time on the internet because they can't seem to break away, are interesting concepts to correlate to the spider-web.

[Farmerbob1]

Looks like others have already done the job here, but I'll say a little.

IMHO, a spider, personified, would have an unnatural quality of stillness and patience as well as the ability to act with amazing rapidity.

People who are extremely still make other people nervous.  A certain amount of animation is required for that human-looking thing to seem human to your brain.

A spider personified might not blink for very long stretches of time.  They might have no nervous ticks or tells to indicate to others what they are going to do.  It's conceivable that they might breathe very shallowly and slowly when not active, so you can't see signs of breathing.

And then, bam, with no warning whatsoever, they act.  Quickly enough that you almost miss it happening.  The smallest, most innocuous movement startling you and setting your heart to hammering because that thing that your mind subconsciously didn't want to classify as a person just moved.

They just took a potato chip from the bowl between you, but it startled you worse than if someone else had pulled a knife and threatened you with it.

[Quantus]

Great stuff!

Grif, thats the direction I was heading with the spider idea: it would be drawing him in and tempting/trapping him, but it will be equal parts intellectual and physical trapping.  The way spirit creatures manifest a body gives it some leeway when it comes to specific form and abilities. Im open to but a bit hesitant to go full human-form flesh-mask style with it, having a monster form lurking under the surface and all that.  These Spirits, in general, manifest a physical form by taking over some matter that is fitting/relevant to their purview, so elementals just need their base elements, whereas more abstract ones might need something more specific.  For example, the greeks were personifications of human concepts and so liked to use humanoid statues of marble or gold; in general it's tiring to hold and animate a physical form so they dont do it forever, and their available power is directly proportional to how closely their form manages to match their "true" form.  Possessing a living creature works but gets complicated; it can last longer but may not allow a whole lot of power through; Saints are people with Angelic partners possessing them, for example.  Animal spirits are common enough, and usually take over some pinnacle example of the breed, to the point where some have raised specific bloodlines for that purpose (if Mouse existed he'd be something like that) so Im considering having a super-spider being kept somewhere for that purpose.  I was always fascinated by the fact that spiders have no predetermined max size, and simply grow as large as their food supply will support.  So in theory a spider could grow to enormous size if it was kept well fed enough.  It might not be able to move or support it's own weight eventually (the body mechanics dont scale perfectly), but it could get there.  Such a breed would likely be in Australia.  The biggest and scariest spiders all seem to be from there, it's where Id expect their King to chill.  Besides, the Outback is probably one of the more remote places that lots of Nature spirits spend their time, in the modern world.



As a related question, what are your thoughts on swarm-forms for such creatures?  I have both this spider-demon thing, and also a were-ant queen (a human in that case, not a spirit).  Ive long said swarm and cloud monsters dont really work well for villains on screen, but I dont know if i have the same issues in print. 

[Farmerbob1]

I could see insects that typically swarm having swarm forms, sure.  Bees, for instance.  Perhaps some ants.  However non-flying insects wouldn't create humaniform shapes unless they are resting against something, I wouldn't think.  Bees could make a humaniform standing shape, but for ants to do the same would be difficult to imagine.  They might, however, be able to make a seated or prone humaniform shape with little difficulty.

[Snowleopard]

What images we draw from our own imaginations is oft times far scarier than
what we see or read.  So, yes, as someone said, less is more in this case.
Also each person will have a different take on the instinctual creepyness of a spider
so leaving a lot of the reader's imagination will mean each person will envision
it in their own form of creepy.

Given multiple eyes - it might be interesting to have your Spider Spirit - open and close different
arrangements of his/her eyes depending on what he/she is speaking about or dealing with.
That would tend to throw somebody off kilter.  We're used to focusing on two eyes only
and not a bunch of them in what, to us, would probably seem to be a random pattern of opened and closed.

There's also scent to consider.  I'm not sure if spiders have a scent but if they do - it would add
another dimension to the encounter.  Some venoms are probably rather acid or alkaline and webbing
would in itself have a scent.  Perhaps the absence of scent would also work.  Most humans have a scent
so dealing with something that doesn't - a bit odd.

And there is body hair also.  Some of the tarantulas will shed or flick their hair at a predator or
an annoyance.  Perhaps having one hair the size of a hair brush bristle or a thin cord floating down out of the air
to light on the MC - it would be a way to convey size without coming out and saying it.

The more senses you involve the better.

[Griffyn612]

Great stuff!

Grif, thats the direction I was heading with the spider idea: it would be drawing him in and tempting/trapping him, but it will be equal parts intellectual and physical trapping.  The way spirit creatures manifest a body gives it some leeway when it comes to specific form and abilities. Im open to but a bit hesitant to go full human-form flesh-mask style with it, having a monster form lurking under the surface and all that.  These Spirits, in general, manifest a physical form by taking over some matter that is fitting/relevant to their purview, so elementals just need their base elements, whereas more abstract ones might need something more specific.  For example, the greeks were personifications of human concepts and so liked to use humanoid statues of marble or gold; in general it's tiring to hold and animate a physical form so they dont do it forever, and their available power is directly proportional to how closely their form manages to match their "true" form.  Possessing a living creature works but gets complicated; it can last longer but may not allow a whole lot of power through; Saints are people with Angelic partners possessing them, for example.  Animal spirits are common enough, and usually take over some pinnacle example of the breed, to the point where some have raised specific bloodlines for that purpose (if Mouse existed he'd be something like that) so Im considering having a super-spider being kept somewhere for that purpose.  I was always fascinated by the fact that spiders have no predetermined max size, and simply grow as large as their food supply will support.  So in theory a spider could grow to enormous size if it was kept well fed enough.  It might not be able to move or support it's own weight eventually (the body mechanics dont scale perfectly), but it could get there.  Such a breed would likely be in Australia.  The biggest and scariest spiders all seem to be from there, it's where Id expect their King to chill.  Besides, the Outback is probably one of the more remote places that lots of Nature spirits spend their time, in the modern world.



As a related question, what are your thoughts on swarm-forms for such creatures?  I have both this spider-demon thing, and also a were-ant queen (a human in that case, not a spirit).  Ive long said swarm and cloud monsters dont really work well for villains on screen, but I dont know if i have the same issues in print.

My only personal qualm with a giant spider is that it's been done so many times.  LotR, HP, Athena, Spiderman, etc.

A blending of human and spider could be creepy.  Something that looks human at a glance, but decidedly isn't upon further inspection.  Primary legs that bend the wrong way and have too many segments.  Off-toned skin with very hairy seems, again with too many segments.  A human-like face, but with recessed multifaceted eyes with no eyelids.  A soft voice from a mouth concealing small grasping legs. 

And as Farmerbob said, unnatural stillness punctuated by fast movement. 

Since it's just an assumed form, or wouldn't be it's "true form".  It could always resort to giant spider.  Not bursting forth from the other form, but simply flowing out.

I've also got it in my head that it or it's agents should be able to send a mass of real-sized but not real spiders through electronics, like translucent energy spiders pouring out of old phone handsets, or even cell phones.  Short lived constructs. 

Imagine the super small baby spider forms of a pregnant Wolf spider, only even smaller.  And as you hold your cell phone in your hand, you feel a thousand almost microscopic spiders surge out of the microphone hole and across your hand, working their way up your arm as you throw the phone down in alarm.

[Haru]

I could see insects that typically swarm having swarm forms, sure.  Bees, for instance.  Perhaps some ants.  However non-flying insects wouldn't create humaniform shapes unless they are resting against something, I wouldn't think.  Bees could make a humaniform standing shape, but for ants to do the same would be difficult to imagine.  They might, however, be able to make a seated or prone humaniform shape with little difficulty.

I've actually seen that being done with spiders in a German fantasy novel (Christoph Marzi - Lycidas). It was only for one scene, but it was excellently done and worked really well to create a rather unique experience for the reader.

It was basically described as spiders crawling all over each other and falling off again and the whole humanoid shape in constant flux and motion. The spiders would speak by clicking their mandibles in unison to create the tones.

[Quantus]

The Giant spider idea would be a cultivated bloodline somewhere.  I dont see it coming up in the first work, which will be mostly set in the US, but if it did show up it would be a sort of thing where the spirit kept jumping form one spider to anther as you defeated them, and every time you thought you'd beaten it's largest form you'd turn a corner and find that it had one even larger. 

[groinkick]

Ability to walk upside down from the ceiling.  It's disturbing because it's not natural for us.  I could imagine someone sleeping in bed, and directly above you see this giant spider walking quietly on the ceiling...  Also the ability to go into cramped places.  Some spiders are able to get into something that looks too small, but they cram themselves in anyways.  So a giant spider under someone's bed, or closet. 

If spiders were human scale I think being wrapped in it's webbing, and being injected with a venom that paralyzes but doesn't kill would be terrifying.  You are completely unable to move, and watch it drain the fluids out of an earlier catch.  Knowing you will be next.

[Farmerbob1]

I've actually seen that being done with spiders in a German fantasy novel (Christoph Marzi - Lycidas). It was only for one scene, but it was excellently done and worked really well to create a rather unique experience for the reader.

It was basically described as spiders crawling all over each other and falling off again and the whole humanoid shape in constant flux and motion. The spiders would speak by clicking their mandibles in unison to create the tones.

'Worm' by Wildbow had a main character that created insect body-doubles from time to time, from flying insects.  If you aren't familiar with it and decide to follow up on it, beware - it's over two million words.  It's also very good if you like grey morality and super powers.

[Blaise Corvin]

Make sure there is scuttling involved.