Doylist analysis of the Scooby Gang at the climax of Cold Days

[Second Aristh]

Odin showed up at Mac's because it's neutral ground.  I don't think there has to be a connection between Mac and Nico/Anduriel for people to use his establishment as neutral ground.

Yeah, Mab and Harry needed someplace quiet to meet with Kringle.  Mac's is the obvious choice for the window of time they had available.

[namkcas]

I have gone back and thought and agreed with my original conclusion.  The most important thing about Mac on Demonreach is the way his actions are different than those in his pub when Sharkface the Outsider shows up.

In his pub, he actively gets weapons and tells Harry to kill the Outsiders.  He knows about Outsiders and wants them dead.  He does not act passively.  In this case, he defends his turf against an Outsider attack.  Almost like he was a previous Gatekeeper or Defender of the Outer Gates.  Once the threat is gone, Mac returns to past behavior.

On Demonreach, Mac is back to standing around waiting for things to happen.  He does not join the fight nor does he provide any commentary that would be helpful.  He simply does not offend. My assumption on his shooting is different.  Nemesis gets a nice clean shot at him.  Maeve thinks she is going to win, so no need to kill him quickly.  However, she does put him out of commission.  I think this comes from Nemesis in knowing who/what Mac is from an Outsider perspective (my base assumption is that Nemesis and the Outsiders act in concert - though we have no absolute proof of that).

[Eldest Gruff]

Egad, I just burned the time I had to read the rest of your post (for now) looking for it and didn't find it, but I'll look again later.

I believe there is actually a WoJ or canon reference that Mac opened his bar around the same time Harry moved to Chicago.

If you find it lemme know, think i'll slap this idea together into a proper topic in the next day or two especially if this WOJ is out there.

[wizard nelson]

That part of the myth always seemed odd to me; Morgan le Fay is directly responsible for Arthur's death as she stole Excalibur's scabbard which granted Arthur immortality.  So this could also be further hinting that like Arthur, Mac is supposed to be immortal.



Arthur on the left, Mordred on the right.

Well, in the version I read mordred tricked him and stole it so aurther plunged the lance of Longinus into it. Morgana was there to heal him, though responsible in ways, because it addressed a rebalance and it was her duty, somehow related to her Wiccan position(one queen for each direction)

[Arjan]

Honestly, he could have dropped Mac after the bar scene if he'd wanted to. 

It was the price Harry had to pay for his secrecy. He did not warn anyone for the coming storm so they where all collected easily. It also showed how far gone Maeve was, her redcap kidnapped Mac from accorded neutral territory.

The premise of "taking people Harry had visited" seemed weak to me.  Harry then risking the lives of presumed innocents by taking them to the island was also out of character. 

But not out of character for cold days Harry, like so many things that happened in that book.

Justine could have insisted on going to stay with Thomas, just in case the world exploded. 

Harry had the opportunity to warn everybody but he did not do so. They were taken unaware.

Sarissa could have said that Mab sent her to attend him, seeing as he seemed to be struggling as the WK, and needed some help understanding Winter Law.

Sarissa does not seem to lie like a mortal. I think everything she says is true in the fae sense.

Instead, we had suspicion of Mac, who has been nothing but a friend to Harry, all in order to get him to come along with everyone else.

Harry became more paranoid, partly because of the mantle I think.

[Griffyn612]

It was the price Harry had to pay for his secrecy. He did not warn anyone for the coming storm so they where all collected easily. It also showed how far gone Maeve was, her redcap kidnapped Mac from accorded neutral territory.
But not out of character for cold days Harry, like so many things that happened in that book. Harry had the opportunity to warn everybody but he did not do so. They were taken unaware.Sarissa does not seem to lie like a mortal. I think everything she says is true in the fae sense.Harry became more paranoid, partly because of the mantle I think.

This is a Doylist argument, not a Watsonian.  I'm saying JB could have done more believable things to get the others there, but there was no reason to take Mac other than "I suddenly don't trust anyone".

JB had Harry play the distrust card for a reason.  Maybe it was just the simplest way to get the others there, but the ways I proposed make more sense.  So the Doylist question is, did he choose that method just to have an excuse to take Mac?  And why did he want to have Mac there?  What relevance was his participation?

There's no reason to take him, other than to establish that Mab was nice to him, that he had a healing factor of some sort, and for us to see him on the island.

Mab being nice was interesting, but could have waited until SG, when she arrived in the pub with Harry for the meeting.  The whole " flatterer" thing could have been the reveal, rather than the bullet on the island.

The healing factor could have been revealed in the pub in Cold Days, too.  No need for him to traipse off to the island, when JB could have had him knocked out after the confrontation with Before.  Harry or Thomas could have checked on him, and noted that he healed up.

The unique factor wasn't healing or seeing him with Mab.  That makes the unique thing getting him on the island.

So how is Mac relevant to the island?  That's the question.

[Arjan]

This is a Doylist argument, not a Watsonian.  I'm saying JB could have done more believable things to get the others there, but there was no reason to take Mac other than "I suddenly don't trust anyone".

It is a very watsonian argument. Murphy could have made it. There are a lot of ways the mantles influence and winter influence in general showed itself in cold days Harry. His paranoia towards Mac was one of them.

Unless you rephrase it as Jim wanted to show us the mantles influence on Harry.....

[Griffyn612]

It is a very watsonian argument. Murphy could have made it. There are a lot of ways the mantles influence and winter influence in general showed itself in cold days Harry. His paranoia towards Mac was one of them.

Unless you rephrase it as Jim wanted to show us the mantles influence on Harry.....

Are we talking about the same thing?  This thread is theorizing as to why JB included Mac with the others, and why his presence was necessary.

I don't think "Because I want to show that Harry is now a distrustful asshole that endangers innocents" was his motivation.  If it had, then he would have one of the others throw it in Harry's face.

[megarows]

Well, in the version I read mordred tricked him and stole it so aurther plunged the lance of Longinus into it. Morgana was there to heal him, though responsible in ways, because it addressed a rebalance and it was her duty, somehow related to her Wiccan position(one queen for each direction)

That... sounds different from what I read.  What source is that from?  Also where did the Lance of Longinus come from?  Arthur's spear is Rhongomyniad. (scroll down)

[wizard nelson]

That... sounds different from what I read.  What source is that from?  Also where did the Lance of Longinus come from?  Arthur's spear is Rhongomyniad. (scroll down)

I said it in one of my first posts. Book called Lancelot du Lethe. Lancelot was gifted the lance by Mars smetrius his war master(also literally Mars, red God of war) and eventually aurther had it at the final battle. Merlin told him to seek out the relics of Christ as the old powers were no longer secure.(it's a romanticized version, emphasizing the love triangle and why lance and gywn did their side)

[KurtinStGeorge]

Taking care of Mac also gives Justine something to do, and having her on the island lets Maeve clue the readers in on Lara not being infected.

More than that, it shows the reader just how calm and collected Justine is when dealing with a life and death situation.  I'd have to reread Even Hand; the short story told from Marcone's perspective, but I recall Justine being equally in control of her emotions and taking carefully calculated risks.  Her rational decision making process was functioning at a high order.

We learned that Justine was smart and knew how to play hard ball in Grave Peril, but even though she successfully blackmailed Harry into helping Thomas at Bianca's party, she was addicted to Thomas and was on an emotional roller coaster from hell when Thomas wasn't around.

Now Justine is as cool and collected as Emma Peel.  Why?  In White Night Justine ascribes her newly found emotional balance to medication, but in Grave Peril she told Harry the med's made her sick.  She could be using a new medication or she could be hiding something.  Hiding something is the more interesting and entertaining possibility, so that's what I'm choosing to believe.   

[Arjan]

Are we talking about the same thing?  This thread is theorizing as to why JB included Mac with the others, and why his presence was necessary.

I don't think "Because I want to show that Harry is now a distrustful asshole that endangers innocents" was his motivation.  If it had, then he would have one of the others throw it in Harry's face.

Show, not tell.

Like breaking into butters appartment, sending Molly away to make a pass at Karen, ....

Some of these things were mentioned by other characters but others were not. The book would become tedious if every deed was explained by a character. In stead the book shows us how Harry is influenced by the mantle. Just as Skin game shows how he had become better in handling it.

The whole atmosphere in cold days is different. The whole paranoia thing is part of that.
Mab and the mantle making him a monster. It must be a believable threat and not just by some other characters pointing it out to him but by his thoughts and actions as well.

The paranoia helps.

[Tami Seven]

More than that, it shows the reader just how calm and collected Justine is when dealing with a life and death situation.  I'd have to reread Even Hand; the short story told from Marcone's perspective, but I recall Justine being equally in control of her emotions and taking carefully calculated risks.  Her rational decision making process was functioning at a high order.

We learned that Justine was smart and knew how to play hard ball in Grave Peril, but even though she successfully blackmailed Harry into helping Thomas at Bianca's party, she was addicted to Thomas and was on an emotional roller coaster from hell when Thomas wasn't around.

Now Justine is as cool and collected as Emma Peel.  Why?  In White Night Justine ascribes her newly found emotional balance to medication, but in Grave Peril she told Harry the med's made her sick.  She could be using a new medication or she could be hiding something.  Hiding something is the more interesting and entertaining possibility, so that's what I'm choosing to believe.

From an author's perspective, having Justine the way she was in GP was an interesting twist, but ultimately made her useless as a long term character. A simple explanation of "better meds" allows JB to keep her available as needed and place her in a useful role as both informant and as Lara's right hand.

Ultimately, maybe in the next book, I hope we get a little more info on her background.

[Eldest Gruff]

Egad, I just burned the time I had to read the rest of your post (for now) looking for it and didn't find it, but I'll look again later.

I believe there is actually a WoJ or canon reference that Mac opened his bar around the same time Harry moved to Chicago.

Here's one that covers, to my mind, a little Doylist like you wanted and a little Watsonian like I theorized:

Where was Harry’s apartment?
In the same mythical four or five blocks where his office was, and where Mac’s is. It’s really dangerous to use an actual location because there’s always that occasional unbalanced person who just decides “Well, this needs to be true to the books, I’m going to burn this house down.” *audience laughter* I knew I was gonna be wrecking the place, so maybe I’ll just kind of make it semi-mythical and that will be healthier for everyone.

So, Mac's is both near Harry by dint of real world worry and necessity...but also why IS it so close to the chosen one?

[Second Aristh]

Maeve's father isn't Mac, unless somehow he's also an Austrian composer that died young and came back.

Can we get a break down of the biological relationships between the various Fae Queens we have seen on screen?
Of particular interest - Maeve and Sarissa, were they actually Mab's kids (biological sense)? If so, who was Mab's baby daddy?
Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.
Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.